Wait, WHAT?
Sorry, I’m reading my flist and skimming episode reactions…
1. You think it would be better for Donna to die than have her memory wiped!? At least this way her family still has her! At least this way she still has a chance to grow into a better person again! At least this way she can live a life! Yes, she’s not the same, and it’s horrible what she’s lost, but I’d rather she have a second chance than DIE because nothing can ever be better than who she became with the Doctor.
2. How was Rose shallow?! First of all, it’s not like the Doctor gave her a choice; he zoomed her over to her AU and fobbed off this other Doctor on her, because, well, take your pick of any/all of the below:
* He’s too much of an emotional coward to open up to her
* He’s too afraid to deal with losing her after she grows old and dies
* He hates himself for committing/inspiring genocide, and wants to punish himself by sending her away
* He hates himself for committing/inspiring genocide, and wants to protect her by sending her away
* He genuinely believes that she’s the only person in the universe who can reign in the fucked-up genocide!happy blue-suit version of himself
* He genuinely believes that Rose will be happier with a version of himself that will age and die along with her
So here she is, once again (see “Doomsday” and “The Parting of the Ways”) having to deal with him making major decisions about her life for her, and she protests, but when it comes down to it, she’s got two choices:
* The Doctor who’s ready to drop her off in the AU and never see her again, and who’s unwilling to open up and admit he loves her when he has to deal with the consequences.
* The Doctor who is willing to stay with her and open his heart to her, to tell her the truth of what he feels for her.
GEE, WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CHOOSE?
And it’s not like he really lets her make the choice, because he runs off before she can really talk it out with him. I’d really want to slap him, except I know it’s his own self-loathing and unhappiness behind it, so I pity him instead.
And I’m happy that Rose gets a version of the man she loves. She’s dealt with him changing before and she’ll deal with it again, but this man has all of his memories and most of his personality. They will find a way to travel and they’ll save the universe together and they’ll change each other for the better.
I don’t think they made Rose all about domesticity. She’s a badass! She shoots Daleks with her big fucking gun, and hops through parallel universes, and is significantly responsible for alerting the Doctor and saving the universe before it’s too late. SHE HELPED BUILD A TARDIS FOR CHRIST’S SAKE. Rose isn’t going to give all that up just because she’s got blue!suit Doctor; she still works for AU!Torchwood. Within the time they had, they showed us that she’s still being amazing, saving the universe, and having adventures.
And they were consistent with her characterization: she loves the Doctor. She loves the adventure and travel and being able to make a difference, but most of all she loves him. To me, that’s what the mortgage conversation meant–that she’ll miss having time and space, but that as long as they’re together, they’ll find a way to be happy. And that’s more or less what she gets. It wasn’t about tiembabies and being normal and boring; it was about him finally being emotionally honest with her.
And since this is really (seriously for real this time) Rose Tyler’s ending, I’m infinitely glad that it’s a happier one.
(And the kiss. I LOVE THE KISS. I’m sorry, I’m not a shipper in the fandom sense, but that’s because canon gives me everything I need. This is my favorite TV couple in the history of ever. I love them both so much.)
3. One image that sticks most in my mind after this was Martha, about to destroy the earth to stop the Daleks. Here’s someone the Doctor loves, who he has inspired, and here’s what he’s inspired her to: committing genocide against her own race in order to stop the Daleks. Sound familiar? It’s the worst thing he’s ever done, the thing he hates himself the most for, and he’s inspired his friends into emulating it. It doesn’t matter that it was necessary, that for Martha it’s heroic; for the Doctor it’s like digging open his deepest wound and stabbing a knife into it. He doesn’t even need Davros there telling him what a monster he is; he’s got the image of Martha, Jack, and Sarah Jane, ready to kill and destroy in order to save. Oh, and “himself,” the clone, committing genocide once again. To me, all the rest of what he did in this episode followed from that moment. He sent everyone off to be safe and happy and as far away from him as possible. Because he hates himself and blames himself and he’d rather suffer than see them emulating his own darkest moments.
It’s not a happy ending at all, but I don’t understand why it’s a bad ending. It’s true to his character. He’s a fucked-up mess of self-loathing, and he’s going to continue to struggle with it. Which is um, good, IMO, because I don’t want happy adventuring James Bond Doctor. I like that he’s a fucked up mess. It makes him more interesting and it makes me love him more.
Tags: doctor who, journey's end
71 Responses to “Wait, WHAT?”
Kita on July 5, 2008 10:35 pm | Link
Word.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 10:41 pm | Link
OH MY GOD WE AGREE ABOUT SOMETHING DOCTOR WHO.
*universe explodes*
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Kita on July 5, 2008 10:45 pm | Link
OH FUCK.
THE MOON IS TURNING TO BLOOD.
RUN.
RUN!
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 10:49 pm | Link
*flees in terror*
And man, after the Doctor and Rose and everybody went to all that effort to save the universe! :P
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Kita on July 5, 2008 10:51 pm | Link
Only to have it destroyed by a couple of old frenemies from the Jossverse.
Well. I like to think Uncle Rusty would be proud. *G*
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 10:56 pm | Link
Heee! “Frenemies”! *grins* *hugs*
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Kita on July 5, 2008 10:57 pm | Link
I LOVE YOU MAN.
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a_white_rain on July 5, 2008 10:44 pm | Link
I like that he’s a fucked up mess. It makes him more interesting.
That’s one way of looking at it. And I do think the Doctor is a fucked up mess.
However. I also felt like his character really didn’t move in any direction. He hates himself! He’s alone! He pushes away everyone he loves! I just need some balance for me to keep enjoying the show. I didn’t see any real positive development for his character and if he keeps getting worse than, I, personally am not very interested.
I need characters to go up and down in a show like Doctor Who. Aimed at children and about hope.
YMMV.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 10:48 pm | Link
But didn’t he go up and down? Miserable in S1 and growing happier. Happy throughout S2 until the end. Miserable throughout S3 and into S4, then growing happier throughout S4. Then miserable at the end again.
Even the endings were pretty balanced. Happy for Luke, Sarah Jane, Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Mickey, Martha. Bittersweet for Rose. Heartbreaking for the Doctor and Donna.
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a_white_rain on July 5, 2008 10:50 pm | Link
As a whole? I don’t think he did, no. Not really. Because I don’t have anything solid for the Doctor thinking that the pain is worth the loss. The Doctor didn’t really seem to experience much growth as a character. At the end, the Doctor has been more miserable than the last each finale for the past three years. That? Personally doesn’t work for me.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 10:54 pm | Link
Hmm. I guess I just think of it as a continuing story and a continuing struggle and this is just, like, somewhere in the middle of it. Doctor Who could go on another 45 years, and the Doctor can’t change that much. I think they’re continuing to explore and delve into his issues in interesting ways, which is enough for me.
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versaphile on July 5, 2008 11:09 pm | Link
On reflection I do agree that it wasn’t so much that Rose was shallow, it was that the whole situation was plain skeevy. “Hi, have this morally flaky version of me who is just human enough to do human love things and is now safely away from my universe, bye!” *shakes head at the Doctor*
But I don’t see the end as a major bout of self-loathing. I think even though he lost Donna, and even though he hated seeing all his friends and himself willing to kill to defend, he’s not in the black put of despair like he was at the end of S2 or S3.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 11:32 pm | Link
I guess it was kind of skeevy, but it’s … more like her dealing with a regenerated version of him, I guess? From her perspective, he has all the Doctor’s memories and most of his personality. It’s kind of obviously RTD manipulating events to give her a happy ending, but I’m glad of it. It’s bittersweet, because she loses time and space and her Doctor, but she gets this other person who’s mostly the Doctor and who needs and loves her. I think it’s the best ending she could’ve gotten, since Billie Piper isn’t coming back to do the full traveling through time and space with the Doctor thing.
I just replied to you in your journal about the self-loathing thing. I hope you’re right, but he seemed the worst I’d ever seen him in that ending. Just, the way he took his jacket off, and his shirt was wet, and his face was just broken. And he was alone, no Donna to pop up and distract him. To me, that’s the most hopeless image of him I’ve seen.
It seemed like the thing tearing him apart was the fact that in the TV show universe in which he lives, sometimes it’s necessary to commit genocide to save the universe. And he can’t accept that, can’t reconcile himself to it, can’t deal with it and accept it and move on. Even though he had to kill the Time Lords to save the universe, he is never going to accept it. It’s going to eat him up inside forever, no matter how much he understands its necessity. Same with that image of Martha about to destroy earth (necessary to save the universe) or of the blue!suit Doctor destroying the Daleks (also necessary). He can’t deal with it. He’d rather separate himself from all his friends than accept that he’s changed them in such a way that they’re willing to commit such evil for the greater good.
And he shouldn’t accept it… genocide should never be an easy choice, should never be something you feel fine with afterward. But being the powerful being that he is, having that whole responsibility that comes with being last of the Time Lords, he’s going to have to keep dealing with it over and over and it’s just going to eat him up inside forever.
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versaphile on July 5, 2008 11:45 pm | Link
It’s a really tough ending. It’s so full of resonance without explicitly giving away any clear reactions. Maybe it’s just that he’s so shut down, in the aftermath of all of that chaos and loss. I don’t see it as suicidal despair, and it’s not open weeping, it’s not him loaded with guilt and clearly seeing that it’s right that he should be alone. It’s something else and I can’t quite pin it down yet.
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versaphile on July 5, 2008 11:48 pm | Link
It does strike me, watching the Confidential, that if the Doctor turns ordinary people into weapons, then by stripping Donna of who she’d become, he undoes the weapon and turns her back into an ordinary person.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 11:51 pm | Link
Oh, god, you’re right. (And obviously I really need to watch the Confidential!) I can totally see that, the he feels like he’s making things better, taking his awful influence away from her. Blinded by his own self-hatred, not realizing how much better he made her. I feel like… almost everything he does in this episode is wrong, but I don’t hate him for it because it’s so much out of self-loathing and guilt.
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versaphile on July 6, 2008 12:07 am | Link
I’ve rewatched just the ending a few times. It feels bitterly sad. Weary. The sense of emptiness, of loss. He has waved everyone goodbye, watched them go off together to their families, their homes. Like Jack and Martha at the end of S3, they have lives to get on with, and he’s not a part of them. Loneliness comes off him in waves, and a sense that he’s been cheated of the woman he loves, of his best friend, of his found family. And that maybe if he can’t keep them it’s because he doesn’t deserve to have them, and that maybe all he’s for is protecting what he loves and never allowing himself to be loved back, not for more than a few hours at a time. Because the ones he takes with him get turned into weapons and turn into *him* and that should never happen to anyone else. Not if he can help it.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 12:15 am | Link
I think that’s it.
And what really gets to me is that it doesn’t have to be that way. He has everything he could want right there in his hands, friends, family, love, and he pushes them all away because of his guilt and self-hatred.
Yeah, okay, he turns his friends into weapons, but all of them use their weapons as a last resort to save the universe. And they’re all in situations where they’re going to encounter this again and again. Separating himself from them isn’t actually going to change who they are. And it’s not bad that they’re empowered to save themselves! None of them are trigger-happy maniacs; they’re all using their power responsibly. I mean, I guess he’s trying to prevent them from having to bear the burden that he bears, but, dude, too late. And also, necessary. Someone has to bear that burden and these episodes clearly show that it’s better to have the companions there to help.
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versaphile on July 6, 2008 12:26 am | Link
Which interestingly brings us to Harriet Jones, who stood by her decision to the end. And 2×12, with Rose vs Jackie about Rose’s future. And if the Doctor does re-create humans in his own image, is that a good thing or a bad thing? For the humans, I think it’s largely a good thing, because then they can protect their families and their planet. The Doctor sees it as a bad thing because of his self-loathing, his guilt over the Time War, and his desire to keep others from having to make the kinds of sacrifices he has. Because he had to destroy his family and his planet to protect the universe, and that will haunt him forever.
I think the Doctor, especially Ten, has this idealized, optimistic view of humanity. And he clings to that because he needs that spot of brightness to keep going. And that’s the real conflict, because to idealize humanity as needing him to save them means humanity is infantilized, helpless. He has, actually, a sort of innocent/monster complex about humans. Either they need to be saved or they’ve become corrupted by knowledge.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:12 am | Link
Have I mentioned recently that your brain is awesome? ;)
I think you’re totally right about his idealized view of humanity and the conflict that comes from it, because every time they aren’t his idealized wonderful humans who need him as savior, he’s so upset. Harriet Jones is the perfect example. I still think the Doctor was right, that shooting a retreating enemy in the back is wrong, but I think his reaction is over the top. In retrospect, she didn’t deserve to be taken down the way he did. (Have I mentioned that I love that she didn’t back down when she returned? I adore her, and I think it would’ve weakened her as a character, even though I disagree with what she did. That was such a wonderfully morally ambiguous situation and I’m glad that they left it a question, that neither character conceded, because it doesn’t and shouldn’t have an easy answer.)
And, yeah, you see the Doctor’s conflicted view of humanity all the time. Look at “The Impossible Planet”/”The Satan Pit” vs “42.” In one he’s bouncing with adoration at the human explorers; in the other he’s seething with rage at the human exploiters (and not just because he’s possessed by a raging sun). Or the way he goes from bitching about the “stupid apes” to raving about their brilliance. Major, major idealization/demonization complex going there, and he loses a lot of perspective because of it.
And he does it with his companions. It’s amazing how they all band together to call him, to protect their planet, to stop the Daleks. And it’s horrible how all these people he met as normal humans are ready to commit mass destruction, because of what he’s taught them. And the thing is, it’s necessary, but he’s so blinded by the Time War angst that he really can’t deal with it in a rational way. (I’m not a huge believer that the ends justify the means, but when the ends are “stop the Daleks from destroying the universe,” um, okay, even I’ll go with it in that case!)
Looking at the companions… Martha and Rose, yeah, turned into soldiers. Jack’s an interesting case, since he’s one person who was really pretty awful before he met the Doctor, but given how badly he’s been running Torchwood, it’s not much the Doctor should be congratulating himself for. At least Sarah Jane usually goes for the non-violent solution?
The thing that hit me when watching the Confidential was the centrality of Davros telling the Doctor that he was showing the Doctor who he truly is: the destroyer of worlds. In a way Davros triumphed the same way the Master did, even though he didn’t achieve his evil goal, because he got to the Doctor. Most of the time, the Doctor has ended up alone despite his best efforts. This time he ends up alone because he’s internalized what Davros said, believes he’s a monster, and purposely sends his friends away from him. (He has Rose back and sends her away on purpose! I’ll never stop being heartbroken about that, even though I understand it completely and accept it as a story choice.)
It’s blowing my mind how well this season ending was foreshadowed. VotD: “I travel alone” and that whole scene with Mr. Copper paralleling the scene with Wilf. His warning to Donna in PoC, that traveling with him may have bad consequences. Donna’s comment about Martha, that the Doctor “turned her into a soldier.” Jenny’s comment that the Doctor is a warrior like her. This season has been so beautifully woven together that I cannot wait to rewatch it again and again.
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versaphile on July 6, 2008 1:52 pm | Link
Except the thing is, I don’t see self-loathing as the main emotion at the end of the episode. I see it as a deep sadness, tinged with bitterness. He didn’t send his friends away, he let them go, which they were quite eager to do. He *did* send himself away, but also made it an act of love, because he gifted Rose with a part of himself who is willing to return her feelings. And he’s utterly sad about having to lose Donna, of having to wipe her memories, and clearly longs to have her back, but he’s not willing to let her die just so she can remember him.
If he truly loathed himself, he would have been the one hurrying people out of the TARDIS, he would have *kept* the dark mirror of himself as self-punishment (or done something like the Family of Blood and locked him away), and he would have pushed Donna away and not stuck around afterwards.
As for his companions, it’s an interesting point that while the Doctor is fixed on the belief that he “destroys” them, what he’s blinded to is the compassion he develops in them alongside the soldieryness. He’s taught them to give that chance for surrender. Note that it’s the blue!Doctor who is the only one who didn’t offer surrender before attacking.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 2:11 pm | Link
Note that it’s the blue!Doctor who is the only one who didn’t offer surrender before attacking.
Which is why he’s right in a way that blue!Doctor needs Rose, even though I still think it’s mostly guilt and self-punishment that leads him to send her away.
I do see deep bitterness and sadness, and a kind of resignation like we had at the beginning of the season. When he told Mr. Copper that he travels alone, and when he hesitated to take Donna along with him. To me that’s sort of worse than wailing and gnashing his teeth misery, because he’s just sort of accepted it, sunk so deeply into unhappiness that he’s not even trying to dig himself out. In fact, he’s actively reinforcing it.
Because, okay, he’d have lost Donna no matter what. But he could’ve had Rose and could’ve had all those friends with him, or traveled with them one by one, or stopped by and hung out with them for a while. He’s just lost Donna; this is the time when you lean on your friends for support. But he lets them all go, pushes Rose away, and pretends he’s fine. That’s his self-sacrifice complex, taking all the pain onto himself.
I think that scene of Davros showing him the “truth” of who he is really got to him. We’ve seen his loathing for soldiers throughout the season, and now he sees himself as one, turning those he loves into weapons. He could’ve had them so much closer to him than he does at the end, and I think the reason he lets them go/pushes them away/pretends to be fine is because he thinks he doesn’t deserve them, and because he’s filled with misguided guilt over what his influence has done to them.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:22 pm | Link
I think maybe the other reason I’m so convinced of the Doctor’s self-loathing is that I’m more of a Doctor/Rose shipper than you. I don’t think anything else but the most extreme self-hatred and masochism and misguided sense of self-sacrifice could’ve led him to lock Rose back in that parallel universe. I really think he loved her more than anything, and that if it hadn’t been for his own screwed-up issues, he’d have done whatever it took to keep her with him as long as he could.
I’m kind of strangely pleased with this episode also because it facilitates both my ships. Rose gets to defend her universe with the human!Doctor at her side, and this universe has an angsty messed up Doctor just begging for the Master to show up again and fuck with his head. ;)
If they don’t get John Simm back for one of those specials, I’m going to hunt down whoever’s in charge of the BBC and, um, pointedly cry at them.
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versaphile on July 6, 2008 3:25 pm | Link
I don’t think anything else but the most extreme self-hatred and masochism and misguided sense of self-sacrifice could’ve led him to lock Rose back in that parallel universe.
That makes sense, yeah.
I really have the itch to write the Doctor post-JE, but it’s all jumbly in my head. Maybe I’ll try a drabble; those usually help.
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versaphile on July 6, 2008 5:00 pm | Link
Done! http://versaphile.livejournal.com/1761915.html
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shipperx on July 7, 2008 1:12 pm | Link
This makes me want to seek out Donna fic.
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rusty-halo on July 7, 2008 1:24 pm | Link
Check out![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/community.gif)
marriedonmars.
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evemac on July 5, 2008 11:13 pm | Link
Okay, I’m stupid and have been thrown off by the extra clicking needed to comment on your WordPress journal, but I’ve been reading all your DW reviews and reactions, and have been on the same page as you.
Especially tonight. I mean, I think I find the Human Ten/Rose ending a bit more imperfect than you, but I love it FOR that. Like you said (and I said) the Doctor doesn’t give her a choice! And in that moment when he says what Doctor Ten cannot, she chooses him. For all of the excellent reasons you pointed out.
Still, I think it’s definitely not the ending she was looking for, and even if it was, it doesn’t mean it’ll end in domesticity — like you said, she’s working in AU!Torchwood!
As for #1, I think I may have said in a couple places that I *almost* felt it would have been less horribly painful to watch had she died, but I know *had* she died, I would have been just as upset.
And what you said in #3 is absolutely perfect. It’s what I was trying to say, and couldn’t think of. Poor, poor, self-destructive lonely Ten. :( *hugs him*
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:21 am | Link
I’m glad you’ve been reading! See, it’s not that hard to comment here. ;)
Yeah, there are a lot of fucked up aspects to the human!Ten/Rose thing, but… I still think it’s the best thing that could’ve happened for Rose, given that Billie Piper isn’t returning to the show. It’s bittersweet in the best kind of way. (And, dammit, it’s Ten and Rose! What’s domestic about those two? They’ll never stop having adventures!)
I would’ve been more upset if Donna died. IMO, death is the absolute end. At least this way she has some sort of chance. At least she’s alive, even in this reduced form. *sigh* It’s absolutely horrible, but to me it’s still better than death.
And emo!Ten. *sobs* Everyone in fandom needs to send him lots of virtual hugs tonight!
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Rebecca [sonnete] on July 5, 2008 11:19 pm | Link
(Found you from the link at the newest reactionary doctorwho community post!)
IA x 100000000000000000000
Even though I hated the way Donna ended up, you’re right, she’s still with her family and we all know that she has the potential to become an amazing individual.
Martha was wonderful in her completely Martha way – she was doing her job, what she believed in, and what she needed to do. She is brave and ass-kickingly awesome. But I felt so sad for the Doctor because of it, I just want to hug him and give him some tea and snuggle in a blanket. Poor Doctor. But I do love him even more for this.
And Rose.. you said everything I wanted to say, eloquently, thank you.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 2:25 am | Link
Thank you. I’m glad I’m not the only one who loved this episode. :)
I’m just completely aching for the Doctor after watching that.
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elz on July 5, 2008 11:21 pm | Link
You think it would be better for Donna to die than have her memory wiped!?
Okay, I might not actually mean that. *g* But narratively, big heroic deaths can be satisfying; memory wipes just leave the audience mourning something the characters don’t even know they’ve lost, which can be even more unsettling. (Torchwood’s use of retcon also really creeps me out.) Of course, that doesn’t mean it’s always the wrong choice as a plot device, or even that it was the wrong choice here. And the Doctor did exactly what I’d expect him to do.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 11:42 pm | Link
Torchwood’s use of retcon creeps the fuck out of me, but this was different because the episode didn’t try to pretend it was okay. It was horrific and the narrative treated it with exactly the weight it deserved. I was crying my eyes out through the entire scene.
(And Donna may not know, but the Doctor, Wilf, and Sylvia know, and the audience can certainly mourn with them. I was!)
“Turn Left” showed us that shallow!Donna can become a better person even without the presence of the Doctor. That’s the only thing that’s making me feel even the tiniest bit better. Wilf is there, and Sylvia has had her eyes opened to the potential of her daughter. I hope they will fill in the role the Doctor had (and Rose had in the AU) of helping Donna become the amazing person we know she can be.
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bubonicplague on July 5, 2008 11:22 pm | Link
RE #1: Aren’t they the same thing? Sorry, but Donna is dead. Whatever this version turns out to be, it’s someone different. It’s a pretty fucking thorough rape.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 11:38 pm | Link
It was absolutely a tragedy and I think the narrative treated it with the weight it deserved.
And yes, I do think being alive and having a chance to become a better person is better than dying and ending forever.
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bubonicplague on July 6, 2008 1:00 am | Link
How would she have the chance to become a better person? I mean, you can”t actually become a better person unless you learn from your mistakes.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 2:15 am | Link
She’ll make new mistakes; that’s life. Hopefully Wilf and Sylvia will be better guides this time. They’ve certainly had their eyes opened to Donna’s potential.
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bubonicplague on July 6, 2008 3:14 am | Link
Not seeing it, here. Donna’s dead. It’s like having a clone or a twin.
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casirafics on July 5, 2008 11:50 pm | Link
Thank you.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 2:23 am | Link
I’m glad I’m not the only one.
I’m surprised how much hatred it’s getting. This was one of the greatest episodes of television I’ve seen in my life.
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bailunrui on July 6, 2008 12:00 am | Link
Yes. I completely agree.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 12:18 am | Link
Thanks. :)
I’m really surprised how many people hated the episode!
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katesutton on July 6, 2008 12:28 am | Link
Yeah, I mostly loved this. Only a few flies in the ointment-no Rose and Jack talking about The Thing? Nothing? And poor-er, can’t keep calling him Brown!Ten-Doctor Prime, alone again. Otherwise, yes. Heartbreaking with Donna, but not EVER better dead. No.
And the end with Rose and Ten-it’s not perfect, but it wouldn’t ever have been. He’s the Doctor still, the same man and the same memories. He loves her and he can say it. The Doctor is wrong, he’s not morally corrupt or shaky. He just…did what he had done before. REMEMBER THAT, DOCTOR? I THINK YOU DO. And that’s the problem in the Doctor’s mind.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 2:21 am | Link
Yeah, I’m really surprised we didn’t get to see more of a Rose/Jack reunion! And an actual goodbye! And Rose’s realization of what she’d done! I guess their relationship has taken on more importance in fanon than it has in the show… :(
The show seems to go back and forth on whether it’s morally justifiable to commit an atrocity for the greater good, on whether the ends justify the means. I guess because it’s an open question that never really has an answer.
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butterfly on July 6, 2008 12:47 am | Link
Complete agreement from over here!
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 2:17 am | Link
Yay! Glad I’m not the only one. :)
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butterfly on July 6, 2008 2:24 am | Link
I mean, if you don’t view the New New New Doctor as a real Doctor, then I can see how it appears to be a fake happy ending for Rose. But they sold that to me in his scenes with Donna and in his “I am the Doctor,” when he committed genocide.
He’s still the Doctor. He’s just horribly damaged himself again. And that the Doctor is so very aware of how much Rose healed him is a tremendous compliment. “You made me better,” he tells her. That’s huge.
Donna’s story broke my heart, but it was meant to, and the Less New Doctor’s ending also broke my heart, but… again, it was clearly meant to. Sarah Jane gets to go home to her adorable child — clear happy ending. Jack gets to go home to Gwen and Ianto, plus it looks like he gains some more people to adopt into his found family — also a happy ending (and for Martha and Mickey, as well — they’ve been mirrored as regards to who they are for the Doctor and Rose, so it’s rather fitting that they each travel similar paths).
If all the endings were happy ones, then the victory would have been too easy. Cheap. The tragedy of Donna’s loss (and RTD makes it very clear that it is an enormous loss) and the Doctor’s continuing tragic journey off-set that, as does the romantic yet bittersweet tone of the Rose ending.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:29 am | Link
Yeah, blue!suit Doctor was the Doctor. Everything we saw of him was the Doctor with some Donna thrown in. He’s got the Doctor’s body and memories. It’s like Rose has ended up with a partially regenerated Doctor, more than anything else. Except no TARDIS (dammit, in my mind they’ve already half-built one) and he’ll age with her, which is sad, but probably better than the inevitable heartbreak we’d have gotten when she aged, and she realized how much he’d hurt when he lost her, and then how lost he’d be when she’d died. Yeah, this is okay. Even though it’s very, very bittersweet, and of course I wish she’d gotten the real Doctor and had ended up spending her life traveling with him in the TARDIS!
Yes, I totally agree that it would’ve been cheap if everyone had gotten a happy ending. Of course it hurts that Donna and the Doctor got such awful endings, and that Rose’s is so bittersweet. It’s supposed to! We wouldn’t be so invested if this show was nothing but puppies and kittens. The really amazing legendary stories hurt.
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jwaneeta on July 6, 2008 1:18 am | Link
Oh god. It’s still loading for me and I’ve seen three friendships shattered online.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 2:17 am | Link
Seriously?! Uh, it’s a TV show?
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bippy24 on July 6, 2008 2:30 am | Link
I completely agree. I think it was the best possible ending. I think it was terrible what happened to Donna, but I feel that even without the Doctor she can be completely amazing. She did it in Turn Left. And now that Sylvia hopefully knows better about supporting her daughter, and of course with Wilf there, Donna can reach that potential again.
Rose’s ending was perfect for me. Of course, I would have loved to see her and Ten travel in the TARDIS forever, but I never thought it would really happen. 10.5 is the same as 10. He loved Rose and lost her and found her again as well. I can definitely see them traveling around in a zeppelin saving the alt!universe. Or maybe even traveling through time and space. They did make a time machine in Turn Left. And I completely adored the kiss as well. It was a long time coming! In the Confidential, you can see they really went for it.
I’m with you in seeing the Doctor as completely fucked up. I don’t think he believes he deserves happiness. I think that what he said about 10.5 is what he feels about himself. Only he doesn’t have Rose (or Donna!) to help him again. Oh, and the mind wipe was really horrific but also completely in character IMO. The Doctor makes choices for his companions all the time. There’s no way he would have let Donna die if he could prevent it. He couldn’t take another death on his conscience.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 4:35 am | Link
This episode has gotten my emotions more riled up than anything I’ve seen in years. The kiss made me so happy. I truly didn’t think we’d get one. The fact that Rose got a version of the Doctor? Made me happy beyond words. The fact that it wasn’t our Doctor and that Rose still loses out on time and space? Breaks my heart.
Donna and Ten break my fucking heart so badly. The Donna we knew and loved has been destroyed. I think she’ll become a better person thanks to Wilf and Sylvia, but she’ll never be our Donna.
And Ten. I don’t think we’ve ever seen him so broken and self-hating. I’m so upset for him, and so angry with him for letting Davros get to him, for letting his own issues blind him, for getting so much of what he wants–love, family, friends–and pushing it all away. *sob*
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oldhalloween on July 6, 2008 4:19 am | Link
Thank you
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 4:31 am | Link
You’re welcome. :)
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Paratti on July 6, 2008 5:20 am | Link
Word. And even without internalising Davros’ verdict on himself it isn’t like the Doctor hasn’t got form for making life altering calls for those he loves and running. He did the same to his own Granddaughter.
And life with the possibility of growth is always better than death, especially in a universe where that means extinction,
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 6:12 am | Link
And even without internalising Davros’ verdict on himself it isn’t like the Doctor hasn’t got form for making life altering calls for those he loves and running. He did the same to his own Granddaughter.
Yeah. And mostly I think that’s fucked up and awful, but here I’ll forgive and understand, because it’s all out of guilt and self-hatred and major major issues.
life with the possibility of growth is always better than death, especially in a universe where that means extinction
I agree. This is a terrible tragedy, but it’s better than her being dead!
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redeem147 on July 6, 2008 7:50 am | Link
The end is sad. I cried. That’s what tragedy does. It makes you sad.
I hope Donna’s mom smartens up (though that’s unlikely after years of bad mothering) or that her Grandfather gets her out of the house and encourages her to be the person she can be. Because he knows who that is.
I was very happy with Hand! Doctor and Rose. I think she’ll love him the way Jacqui and Not!Pete love each other. She did chose him, I think, when he told her and she kissed him. But that doesn’t make it not bittersweet, cause that’s how it’s supposed to be.
Yay for Mickey’s balls! I suspect he’ll show up in the Hub.
If you want to see the Doctor at his manipulative best, I recommend the Virgin Doctor Who Adventures with the Seventh Doctor as Time’s Champion. I think where Ten is directly relates to that. Episode-wise, Curse of Fenric would do the trick. Or Ghostlight.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 12:08 pm | Link
Yes. There’s a difference between a tragic ending and a bad ending. This ending broke my heart but I thought it was perfect for the story.
I thought the Doctor/Rose ending was the most perfect bittersweet ending I’ve ever seen. I was so happy that she ended up with a version of him who opened up and told her he loved her, and I was so heartbroken that she lost out on time and space and our Doctor. And most of all I was sad for our Doctor, who pushed away the person he loved because of his own messed-up issues. :(
Mickey had an amazing character arc. I love him and, yeah, I hope this isn’t the last we’ll see of him!
I saw “Curse of Fenric” a while ago. I’m not really fond of manipulative Doctor; I’m only okay with it here because it’s not presented as a good thing, and I can see the gaping emotional wound it’s stemming from.
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chloris on July 6, 2008 10:02 am | Link
Heh. My initial reaction was that it would be better for Donna to die. But I was thinking about me. It’s not better for her. It would have been more emotionally satisfying for Donna to die a hero, knowing her potential. However, we do already know that she can be awesome without the Doctor. So, now I’ve come around to the view that alive is better with the possibility of awesome in her future.
I loved the kiss too! It made me believe that they will be happy. It also made me believe that she did choose him. And I do see him as the Doctor. Just as Nine and Ten are both the Doctor. It may take Rose a while to fully understand that, but I think she will in time.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 12:02 pm | Link
I’m heartbroken for Donna. But I’m glad we have “Turn Left” to show that Donna can take multiple paths to becoming amazing. And that Sylvia and Wilf have had their eyes opened to her potential. I don’t think it’s a happy ending, but I think it’s less tragic than death.
I do see him as the Doctor. Just as Nine and Ten are both the Doctor.
I agree. He’s got the Doctor’s mind and memories. Just like Jenny was a real person even though she showed up through unusual means, that’s a real Doctor.
And yes, I loved the kiss, which I never in a million years thought we’d get. And I love how clear it was that Rose belongs with the Doctor, that in all their scenes together she was the one standing next to him, holding his hand, etc. They just fit so perfectly, and I think she’ll end up with the same relationship to her Doctor, even though he’s not 100% the same. *sniffle*
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bethbethbeth on July 6, 2008 11:05 am | Link
I agree with *almost* everything. :)
However, the Doctor (Mark I) – emotional coward though the poor thing may be – couldn’t actually stick around to talk to Rose at Bad Wolf Bay because the gap between universes was closing again, and this time it’s supposed to be permanent.
Okay…last time it was supposed to be permanent too, but… :)
(btw…I just registered. Add me to the list?)
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 11:57 am | Link
I added you. :)
I think the first time at Bad Wolf Bay, the Doctor was going to tell Rose he loved her, absolutely. But was he willing to open up that far only because he knew he’d never seen her again? I don’t know. Personally, I think in that moment, if the universe had magically spat Rose back into the TARDIS, he would have told her, and they’d have lived out her lifespan happily together, although his heart would’ve broken when she finally grew old and died.
This time around, he had a second chance, and he didn’t say it. In my mind, he absolutely wanted to, but he was too overwhelmed with guilt and self-hatred to want Rose to travel with him, now he’s been convinced that he turns companions into weapons who kill/die because of him. And because he wanted Rose to have her semi-happy ending with the other version of him, so even though he did love her, he refused to say it so she’d choose the other one.
But I do think it’s emotional cowardice in a way, because rather than deal with this “I turn everyone I love into weapons” thing (which is such bullshit, he empowers them and they make their own choices, sometimes hard but necessary choices), he sends everyone away, tries to give everyone else a decent ending, takes all the burden of loneliness onto himself, pretends he’s fine, and ends up so broken and lost. When he had everything right there–friends, family, love–and he sent it away because he’s too emotionally fucked-up to deal with it. It’s not really emotional cowardice, I guess, it’s just some awful unnecessary self-hatred/self-sacrificing complex. :(
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PSUbrat on July 6, 2008 5:31 pm | Link
Thank you. I was beginning to wonder if anyone watched the same episode I watched.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 8:23 pm | Link
I’ve never been a positivista before! Doctor Who turns all my fannish expectations on their heads. In a good way!
I’m amazed by the range of reactions to this episode, from so many different quarters. I guess you can see fan factions splitting and re-forming, which is … good? And at least it got major emotional reactions! I thought it was the best TV show finale I’ve ever seen. It managed to please my pessimistic “need darkness and angst” side and my optimistic “need kisses and happy endings!” side all at once.
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anduril on July 7, 2008 12:33 am | Link
This is the saddest ending ever, cried the whole scene at Donna’s house, and Wilfred? Broke my heart with his ‘I look up for you’. Here’s hoping the Doctor will remember that, even when he’s alone, he still got Wilf everyday to look out for him. *sniff*
The kiss in Confidential is much more hotter. Whyyy did they took that angle instead? Russel was correct when he said it was the ultimate tragedy to see the girl you loved kissing another guy who look like you., but not you. And Confidential made me cried again, when they mentioned how the Doctor went from having the Tardis full of people to being alone, again.
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rusty-halo on July 7, 2008 12:07 pm | Link
Wilf’s scene broke my heart more than anything else. I need to watch it again because I cried through the whole thing the first time.
I was so shocked and pleased that we got the kiss at all that I don’t really care about the angle. Dude. IT’S CANON FINALLY!!!
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cindergal on July 7, 2008 2:36 am | Link
Dude, you’re such a pollyanna. Who are you and what have you done with Laura? ;-)
I loved the episode, too. Yes, it was tragic. (Donna! No!!) Yes, the Doctor did some really questionable things, but that’s why we love him, no? And I’m sure his issues are part of it, but you know, when I was watching the scene at the bay where Rose asks him what he was going to say, I was wondering whether he didn’t tell her he loved her because he knew that BlueSuitTen would.
And there was so much else to love about the episode with all the companions flying the TARDIS, and DoctorDonna and on and on. And when did Mickey get so hot? Captain Cheesecake, hee. I hope this means he’ll be on TW now.
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rusty-halo on July 7, 2008 12:13 pm | Link
I know, me being positive! Doctor Who turns all my fannish experiences on their heads. I actually like the show and the creator and most of the characters!
I’m looking forward to Mickey being on Torchwood. Well, as much as I can look forward to anything related to Torchwood. At least frogface is gone. Although I hope Martha doesn’t remain the gaping lack of personality that she’s been so far.
I think our Doctor didn’t tell Rose he loved her because he knew the human Doctor would, yes. But the mere fact that he was willing to send her away because he couldn’t deal with losing her is, to me, emotional cowardice. What I loved in their relationship was the idea that the joy is worth the inevitable loss, and yet ultimately the Doctor decided it wasn’t. He preferred to send her away himself than face losing her again. (*sniffle*)
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shipperx on July 7, 2008 1:08 pm | Link
It’s not a happy ending at all, but I don’t understand why it’s a bad ending.
I thought it was what it was intended to be: bittersweet.
Jack, Sarah Jane, Mickey, and Martha are left healthy, independent, and happy. Mickey didn’t win Rose, but that happens. He’s okay with it. These four will go one to happy, fulfilling lives.
Rose has a ‘best of times, worst of times’ option. She gets her heart’s desire – to spend her life with the Doctor. But it’s not how she pictured it. But, hey, that’s life. I wasn’t bothered by it because it’s not all that different than what happened to my favorite tv couple – John and Aeryn on Farscape. John was split in two. Aeryn loved and lost one of them. Then struggled to learn the other, and in the end it wasn’t a question of “Do you love ‘him’ or ‘me’?” it was “Do you love John Crichton?” So I wasn’t shocked by Doctor/Rose’s ending. And I thought the “I love you” encapsulated the situation. The 100% time lord Doctor couldn’t say it. The more human version of himself could. The Doctor gave the human part of himself to Rose. They are companions. It’s not a perfect solution. But in many ways it’s more satisfying by it’s melancholy edge. But, still, he gave the most human part of himself to her.
The tragedy is Donna. My heart breaks for her. (Not that I wish that she’d died instead). But to be unaware of her own speciallness, to all that she is, is a tragedy which lingers with me. How terribly, terribly sad. I think she’s my favorite companion.
I think they tried for some kind of balance, and while not perfect, I more or less think Who hit the tone that it was trying to hit. There’s good. There’s bad. There’s in between. And, there is still life.
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rusty-halo on July 7, 2008 1:20 pm | Link
Bittersweet is definitely the word.
As for Doctor/Rose, I’m happy for Rose and human!Doctor, but I’m really devastated for our Doctor. Part of what I loved in the Doctor/Rose story was him learning to reconnect after the Time War, to open up again and love someone despite the inevitable loss. I hate that he ultimately turned away from that and wasn’t willing to accept the inevitable pain that would come with the fleeting happiness.
He’s such an emotionally needy character, and now he’s back where he started. Hurt and closed-off and afraid to let anyone in. I think it’s written well and is in character, but it’s unquestionably a tragedy and I’m sad about it.
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