Doctor Who 4×13
I’m crying my eyes out here. Obviously.
That was PERFECT. The most perfect everything and OMG he sent everyone away because he bought into what Davros said, he blamed himself and hated himself and believed that he turned all his friends into killers and he sent everyone away and punished himself OMG HE SENT ROSE AWAY, yes because he wanted her to be happy but that “you have to teach the other me” was bullshit, he could’ve easily kept them both with him, omg he sent her away because he hated himself and wanted to punish himself and…
Aaaahhh and I’m happy for Rose and everything, even though she doesn’t have time and space, she has (a version of) the Doctor, this is actually what my shippy soul was hoping for, and WHEN THEY KISSED OMG I WAS SCREAMING AND CRYING AND AND
DONNA. I’m turning into an hysterical wreck again. I want Donna back. It’s not fair. Yes I’m at the emotional state of a four year old right now. GIVE ME DONNA BACK. FIX HER.
And the Doctor. Hating himself and alone and broken and OMG WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT.
*cries more*
My friend is here raving about how she hates romance and how old Who is better so um I’m ignoring her because I really really really can’t deal with that right now.
But the Doctor kissed Rose and he told her he loved her but it wasn’t HIM and….
*cries*
Okay I have to go wash my face and serve cupcakes and be nice again.
Tags: doctor who, journey's end
36 Responses to “Doctor Who 4×13”
bailunrui on July 5, 2008 8:07 pm | Link
Yes. Totally. OMG I totally agree with everything. We seem to have the unpopular reaction to the episode, but screw the haters. As a Rose-lover and shipper, I couldn’t have hoped for a better ending. *huggles the Doctor and the universe that strains to contain his emo-ness*
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 9:17 pm | Link
I loved it, even though I’m still sniffing.
There’s a few things that are bothering me–sort of the implication that it wouldn’t have worked with Rose and the real Doctor, which I don’t believe at all, it would’ve been harder but they’d have lived her forever and been happy. But his heart would’ve broken afterward, yes, so I guess he’s protecting himself from that by sending her away now. He’s such an idiot. A self-hating, self-sacrificing idiot. *loves him* *cries*
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 9:19 pm | Link
And also WE GOT TO SEE THEM KISS, which I never in a million years thought would happen.
Except it didn’t, but it kind of did, with the half-human plausible deniability, BUT we know the REAL Doctor would’ve said the same in that moment because he thought he’d never see her again, and I hate him for being such a coward and hating himself too much to say it for real and live with the consequences. (And I love him because he’s so fucked up and broken and that’s why he ends up destroying his own happiness.)
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versaphile on July 5, 2008 8:16 pm | Link
Okay, that actually helps me make sense of the last 20 minutes. The Doctor accepting Davros’ judgement and pushing everyone away, sending his copy away, even up to taking himself out of Donna’s head entirely, because he hates himself. That follows RTD’s characterization for him. But I wish the ep had ended with something more upbeat. Stop kicking the Doctor, dammit!
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 8:53 pm | Link
Oh, god, it was ALL self-loathing. There was no other resolution to the Davros thing, just Davros telling him how horrible he is and him standing there, hearing it, internalizing it, and acting on it to punish himself and separate everyone he loved from him. ON PURPOSE. He’s such an idiot OMG. (*adores him and wants to hug him and dammit he needs Donna to slap the hell out of him* *starts crying again*)
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 9:02 pm | Link
Er, loved, not lived.
*still slightly hysterical*
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fauxkaren on July 5, 2008 8:22 pm | Link
It was totally the best possible outcome. There was no way that the Doctor and Rose were going to go riding off into the sunset. So now Rose has a version of the Doctor that she can live with and be happy with. She may not have time and space, but the Doctor is clever. I’m sure he’ll figure out some way to travel, even if he is limited to the Earth timeline.
A lot of shippers aren’t happy with this episode, and I understand that… but really, this was the best possible outcome. I’m satisfied, and it makes sense in terms of the story.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 9:22 pm | Link
Oh, I love that idea. Of course they’ll figure out a way to travel and to save their own universe again and again. I’m so happy that Rose got her happy ending, you have no idea. I think that’s the thing I was most hoping for in this episode, since I knew Donna was headed for something bad, and I’m kind of an evil h/c fan who likes watching the Doctor suffer. But I wanted happiness for Rose and I’m so so so glad that she has it.
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Blue Rose on July 5, 2008 8:22 pm | Link
Yay for Rose, she got her happy ending.
What about the Doctor?
That’s the part that gets to me. I watch DW for the Doctor. Where’s his happy ending?
I hope SM does a better job :(
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 9:05 pm | Link
Well, for the Doctor it’s never an ending, since he just keeps going and going as long as the show lasts.
I love RTD with all my heart. I’ll probably stop watching when Moffat takes over since I don’t like his sexism and how he puts plot over character.
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pluckyyounggirl on July 5, 2008 8:32 pm | Link
I’m just not sure what the hell to feel about this. The way you’re explaining it makes it make a little more sense, but… I don’t know. I can’t deal. I just feel numb, because it didn’t feel true to the Doctor’s and Rose’s story, and I feel like I watched the characters I loved the most vanish right in front of me.
I’m so upset about Donna. You don’t do that to Donna, damnit. You just don’t.
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 9:12 pm | Link
Not everyone gets a happy ending. :( I’m so sad about Donna. But that’s how you tell an emotionally engaging story that pulls at your heartstrings. Sometimes bad things have to happen to the characters you love most. (*attempting to make myself feel better*) You can’t have every character have a happy ending or it just gets cliched.
Donna’s lost so much, god, but at least Wilf is there, and Sylvia has new respect for her, and I hope she’ll find that better part of herself somehow anyway, even though she won’t get time and space and the Doctor. *sniffles*
The ending for Doctor/Rose was the best thing I could think of. She’s leaving, this is Rose’s end, so she gets her happy ending. And he’s staying and has to continue, so he gets his angsty ongoing story. And it felt true to me, because the Doctor’s self-loathing has been at the core of his character throughout the new series, that the Doctor hates himself and would punish himself by doing what he thinks is best for Rose. It’s the reason he sent her to the parallel world in the first place, and set up that family for her, to give her what he thought would be a happy ending for her. He always jumps in to sacrifice his own happiness, even when he shouldn’t.
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pluckyyounggirl on July 5, 2008 9:52 pm | Link
Well, I was going to reply to this, but then Amie here chipped in and said pretty much exactly what I’ve been thinking. So, let me just add this:
The thing is, for me, that Doctor Who has been about optimism and about hope for as long as I’ve watched it, and I wanted the Doctor to get a chance to heal, like Amie said. And the ending did not feel true to the story and the characters I have been watching, and that hurts. I hate the fact that even now, decisions keep being made for Rose. I hate that she doesn’t even get to say goodbye. That she just accepts her replacement, thankyouverymuch, and have a good life. That the Doctor is still alone and Rose-less, knowing that some other him is with her. The whole idea is so sick and twisted and so, so, so untrue to the characters as we’ve ALWAYS seen them, as I have seen them, even 40 minutes into this episodes still saw them. And this is supposed to make me happy? This is exactly what I did NOT want, the Doctor and Rose snogging and settling down and making tiembabies. This is exactly NOT what their relationship has been about for me. And all I feel is blank. For me, it was the exact opposite – pretty much the worst ending that could have happened for me, personally.
Including Donna. See, Donna’s loss doesn’t have any impact on me. She doesn’t even know what she’s lost, which may be worst of all. The thing is, all it did was upset me, and make me angry with the show – it did not make me cry. For me, it wasn’t heartbreaking, it was just fucked up. I mean, what the hell kind of story is that? You travel with the Doctor, you see amazing things, you save lives, you save his, many times, and in the end, you get dumped back in Chiswick and your memories wiped, never to aspire to anything in life ever again? WHAT? I’m sorry, WHAT?
I realise that I’m being very emotional right now. I just want you to know that this is how I personally feel. I’m glad that you got something from it, I really am. What did that article say that was linked around a while ago? We all watch different shows, and that’s okay. It really is. But the show I thought I was watching until the very last 20 minutes of Journey’s End disappeared in those 20 minutes, and it’s hard, because right up until then, I was convinced that the production team and I were watching the same show for once, and tonight made me realise we weren’t. So I’m kind of sad about that.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:54 am | Link
I’m sorry you had such an unhappy experience of it. :(
Doctor Who has been about optimism and about hope
Wasn’t it optimistic for some of the characters, just not all? Martha, Mickey, Sarah Jane, Jack, Gwen, Ianto, Luke? And bittersweet for Rose, both tragic and optimistic?
I hate the fact that even now, decisions keep being made for Rose.
I agree that it’s upsetting, which is part of what makes her story bittersweet. But I understand better why the Doctor does it, that it’s born of self-hatred and self-punishment and the desire to protect.
That she just accepts her replacement, thankyouverymuch, and have a good life.
Well, she doesn’t just accept it. She argues and runs after him, but it’s too late. It’s a consolation prize, I suppose, but it’s also a bit better, in that this is a version of the Doctor who’s willing to open up and admit he loves her, unlike the other.
This is exactly what I did NOT want, the Doctor and Rose snogging and settling down and making tiembabies.
I really didn’t get that, the settling down and tiembabies. They’re still the Doctor and Rose. They’re defending the earth from alien threats and getting intel from Torchwood and building their own time and space hopping thingies. There was no mention of settling down; it was more about Rose guiding the new Doctor into being a better person. Which, c’mon, is going to happen through adventures, because neither of them could ever sit still. And this time they won’t have to deal with the knowledge that he’ll end up alone in the end without her, because they’ll live out their lifespans together.
what the hell kind of story is that? You travel with the Doctor, you see amazing things, you save lives, you save his, many times, and in the end, you get dumped back in Chiswick and your memories wiped, never to aspire to anything in life ever again?
A tragedy? I don’t need everything to end happily; I just need the story to treat it with the weight it deserves. And they absolutely treated this like the heartbreaking tragedy it was. Not everything ends happily; yes, sometimes you save the universe and become an amazing person and everything gets taken away from you anyway. And it’s awful. :( But I think it was a beautiful story.
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Yonmei on July 6, 2008 5:57 am | Link
And they absolutely treated this like the heartbreaking tragedy it was.
No. They treated it like this was the Doctor’s heartbreaking tragedy. And – as I noted on my journal – my sympathy for the Doctor’s emo at the end of the episode is kind of muted by his having just destroyed Donna.
I guess that’s it: I want the Doctor to save his Companions, or at the very least try to save his Companions – it’s OK to have a heroic failure, but the Doctor as I know him always tries.
And the end of the episode was the Doctor not even trying to save Donna: he destroys her mind and angsts about it. He did to her what the Time Lords did to Jamie and Zoe at the end of Doctor Two – mindwipe.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 6:19 am | Link
You’d have preferred that he stood there fiddling with his screwdriver while she died in front of him? The narrative pretty clearly constructed it as a choice between death or memory wipe. He did what he had to do to save her. I can’t fathom why you’d hate him for that; clearly he hates himself enough for it already. At least this way she has a chance at some sort of life. He did save her in that way, if nothing else.
They treated it like this was the Doctor’s heartbreaking tragedy.
I didn’t think so at all. Yeah, it’s his show and he’s at the center so we see his heartbreak over everything that’s happened, but that final scene in the house was all about Donna Noble. About how amazing she’d been and about the tragedy of her loss. (And that it followed two episodes after “Turn Left,” which was all about how fucking amazing Donna is, just drove it home more.)
I’m sorry, I understand you’re upset over Donna, because I am too, but I can’t imagine where you’re coming from in blaming the Doctor. He didn’t do this casually. He did it because it was the only choice to save her life, even though it tore out his heart to have to do it.
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Yonmei on July 6, 2008 11:05 am | Link
I would have preferred that the Doctor try to save her – even if he failed, I wish he had tried.
The narrative pretty clearly constructed it as a choice between death or memory wipe.
Yes, that’s my problem with the narrative. The Doctor was required by the way the episode was written to give up – he wasn’t allowed even to try to save Donna, because the episode had it set up that he knew he would fail either way.
I can’t fathom why you’d hate him for that
I can’t fathom why you interpret criticism of how the Doctor is being written as “hatred”. True, I don’t find his failure to even try to save Donna particularly admirable, but – as noted above – that was how the narrative had set it up. Unless you want to pick a fight, don’t interpret dislike of this interpretation as “hatred”: if you want to know what my hatred of a fictional character sounds like, just ask me what I think of Spike sometime.
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pluckyyounggirl on July 7, 2008 3:32 pm | Link
Okay, I’m a bit more coherent right now. I still don’t like the way it ended, but I think I’ve worked through why I don’t (and among others, it’s for many of the reasons in your latest post), and that’s making it a bit easier to talk about it.
Wasn’t it optimistic for some of the characters, just not all? Martha, Mickey, Sarah Jane, Jack, Gwen, Ianto, Luke? And bittersweet for Rose, both tragic and optimistic?
I think that’s exactly the reason why it shattered me so much – it wasn’t optimistic for the two characters that matter the most to me: the Doctor and Rose. For me, so much of their story has been about opening up and accepting the pain that comes with their relationship because in the end, it’s worth it, because love does make you stronger. I was so certain that all the pain the Doctor’s been through would have a point, particularly when this series has been so much about how important it is for him to have these connections to people, about relationships, about reconnecting. I really thought that there would be a payoff; that he would continue to open up the way he slowly started doing over the last years, and that there would be a glimmer of hope for him.
But there’s not, not ever. He’s just going round and round in circles, stalling, being kicked when he’s already down time and again, and punishing himself on top of it. And I absolutely understand that that is his tragedy, and that it apparently is where they want to take this show. It’s just that for me, personally, it’s starting to feel like pain for the sake of pain. It’s losing its impact, and it’s also not the story I thought I was watching. I have to deal with that, and then I have to think about whether or not it is a story that I can still be interested in and that I want to continue watching.
I really didn’t get that, the settling down and tiembabies. They’re still the Doctor and Rose.
Yeah, I would like to apologise for that – I’ll admit that I was a bit over-emotional when I wrote that. I don’t really believe that, but I think what upset me so much was that the tone of the entire beach scene made me feel like it, you know? Apart from the fact that it emphasized the one point of their relationship that was always the least important to me – the romance – it also just felt so poorly executed. Watching it on Saturday night, the whole thing felt like a bit like a crossover between bad fanfic and a Steven Moffat ending.
A tragedy? I don’t need everything to end happily; I just need the story to treat it with the weight it deserves. And they absolutely treated this like the heartbreaking tragedy it was. Not everything ends happily; yes, sometimes you save the universe and become an amazing person and everything gets taken away from you anyway. And it’s awful. :( But I think it was a beautiful story.
I am actually dealing with this part of the story much better now. I think that personally, I probably needed it to be written a bit differently for me to really work right away, but it’s a story that on the whole I can probably live with. Particularly since I am really so satisfied with how they dealt with the aftermath of it. But at the time, it felt very Jossverse to me – it didn’t feel emotionally honest, and again, it felt like pain for the sake of pain. That’s not something I can explain – it’s just how it felt at the time. It upset me a lot, because one thing I always appreciated about RTD is that it never felt like he resorted to that, and then it felt like he did. It’s all a bit hard to put into words.
I’m still sorting through my thoughts on this, and I’ll probably end up writing a really long therapeutic post about it. In the meantime, I’d just like to say that I really enjoy reading your posts and our discussions, because even if our opinions differ on some things, I mostly understand and definitely appreciate your POV.
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rusty-halo on July 8, 2008 7:05 pm | Link
Thank you, btw. I’ve also enjoyed our discussions. It’s helping me a lot to read all the differing reactions, as I work out my own feelings.
It’s just that for me, personally, it’s starting to feel like pain for the sake of pain.
I agree that it’s been gratuitous lately. :( I thought it was really well-written here, but it does lose impact after Jenny, and River, and the Master, and all the Time Lords, and and and…
Right now I’m pretty pissed off at our Doctor, and am thinking happy thoughts about the AU adventures of Rose and human!Doctor instead. It’s helping!
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Amie on July 5, 2008 9:33 pm | Link
The ending for Doctor/Rose was the best thing I could think of. She’s leaving, this is Rose’s end, so she gets her happy ending. And he’s staying and has to continue, so he gets his angsty ongoing story. And it felt true to me, because the Doctor’s self-loathing has been at the core of his character throughout the new series, that the Doctor hates himself and would punish himself by doing what he thinks is best for Rose. It’s the reason he sent her to the parallel world in the first place, and set up that family for her, to give her what he thought would be a happy ending for her. He always jumps in to sacrifice his own happiness, even when he shouldn’t.
You’re right that this self-loathing has been his constant companion. That’s why I am less than happy with this ending. This gave RTD a chance to heal his Doctor via spending the rest of Rose’s lifetime with her, perhaps having a little time-lordling or two to bring back his race, and we restart w/Moffat and a less-emo version that can be the James Bond Moffat seems to want him to be. This Ten (is it technically Eleven now? So confused) is more broken than the one RTD started with.
Not only am I unhappy about Rose not getting the real Doctor, I am unhappy about the resolution of DoctorDonna. They should not have been separated. Yes, they could have had a tragic end, but there was such potential squandered there. Plus–Donna should have been the one to smack actual!Ten in the head and make him go to his woman.
Yes, there is logic in what you say, particularly given what Davros was doing to him. But I am going to continue to pout because there were other ways to resolve this that would have made us happier and given Moffat his clean slate PLUS Tennant the cash cow to boot.
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Amie on July 5, 2008 9:35 pm | Link
Erg, realized I forgot one important point in my above argument. Dalek Caan said that the most faithful companion would die. I say that’s his guilt. That’s the song of Ten’s that I wanted to see come to an end as prophecied by the Ood.
::goes back to pouting::
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rusty-halo on July 5, 2008 9:38 pm | Link
I don’t want James Bond Doctor. I don’t want Tiembabies. You can’t just give everyone a happy ending; that’s cheesy and cliched. Sometimes good stories hurt.
The Doctor’s issues are at the center of his character, so… I don’t want him to just “heal.” I don’t think he can. It’s a struggle that he’s going to continue as long as he’s around. *shrugs*
Happiness isn’t my goal; I want a well-written story that gets to me emotionally. This was everything I wanted. I’m never going to forget the emotions I’m feeling right now for Rose Tyler, Donna Noble, and the Tenth Doctor. If it had all been puppies and sunshine, I wouldn’t be feeling anything this intense, and I wouldn’t remember and rewatch it years from now, the way I know I will with what I just saw.
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Amie on July 5, 2008 11:08 pm | Link
Ok. I have watched it again, with completely different hopes/expectations/mindset. I am infinitely more satisfied with this ending than I was a few hours ago. And yes, I have to say I am more gutted the second viewing than the first.
You’re right; it is the best possible ending we could have gotten.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:58 am | Link
I’m glad you’re feeling better about it. :)
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Amie on July 6, 2008 9:25 am | Link
I would go so far to say that I radically changed my views of the episode from the first viewing, particularly once I realized one key point that alluded me the first viewing: The Children of Time won the battle, but the Daleks won the war.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 11:36 am | Link
The Children of Time won the battle, but the Daleks won the war.
That’s a good way to put it.
I’m totally struck by the Doctor’s realization that he’s turned his friends into weapons who are ready to die for him. He can’t stand the thought of that; look how he hates when anyone carries a weapon, and now the idea of himself surrounded by friends isn’t family/friendship/love, it’s him surrounded by weapons, human beings that will kill and die because of him. And these are the people he loves most in the universe. Of course he sends them all as far away from himself as they can get. Poor self-sacrificing idiot. :(
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butterfly on July 6, 2008 12:58 am | Link
What you said! All of it! Complete agreement!
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trepkos on July 6, 2008 3:02 am | Link
I was very cross with RTD for having Donna’s brain unable to cope with a bit of timelord thinking, and I really really thought you (and Butterfly) would be fuming about that too.
But maybe having seen a comedy sketch some time ago about how you mustn’t let women use their brains too much because they go into meltdown (done in the style of a 60s PSA) has influenced my reaction too much.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:42 am | Link
I didn’t get that sense of it at all. They never implied that it was about gender; it was about a human body not being capable of containing that Time Lord essence. It was like how Rose couldn’t contain the Time Vortex. Humanity can’t have godlike powers; Icarus can’t fly too close to the sun; y’know. I definitely wasn’t offended by that aspect of it.
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Yonmei on July 6, 2008 6:22 am | Link
It wasn’t implied in the episode that it was about gender, no. Just as in “Midnight” it wasn’t implied that it was about sexual orientation that the lesbian was the one taken over by evil aliens, or that it was about race that the three black people in the show are all shown in subordinate positions, two of them die, and one of them isn’t allowed to have a name (and the best fanfic story I saw for that episode failed to name the character, saying it would be “gimmicky”, which I found appalling).
But we live in this culture, and we can note the context of the culture: Rose got told to quit adventuring, stay home, and look after her man, and Donna got mindwiped because her puny brain couldn’t cope with that amount of knowledge. Both of which are classic anti-feminist tropes. We’re entitled to notice that.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 6:28 am | Link
We are clearly watching very different shows.
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Yonmei on July 6, 2008 11:11 am | Link
Or possibly just living in very different cultures.
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queenofattolia on July 6, 2008 3:48 am | Link
As I’ve written elsewhere, I think the Rose/Blue Suit Doctor end was RTD’s way of circumventing Whedon’s vampire/Buffy dilemma: just make a human replica and be done with it. It was fan-ficcy in the extreme, which doesn’t mean I didn’t like it – I did. But I can see why some people would not be happy with it – it was a big bone thrown to Rose/Ten shippers. But what I don’t think anyone realizes is that RTD himself is the biggest R/T shipper of them all, and that he wanted to satisfy his own desire to see them together. So he stole a little bit from Farscape – big deal.
I am more and more unhappy about Donna’s fate, though. I’m glad she didn’t die, but now the only place she and her exploits and successes will live is in the Doctor’s memory, which is sad and awful. ::sigh::
And I have no idea where Ten is going to go after all this. I sort of wish he had regenerated into Eleven.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 3:57 am | Link
Poor Ten. :(
Donna will live on in the Doctor’s memory. And Rose’s. And in the collective memory of the Ood. And in Wilf’s (and maybe even Sylvia’s). And in Agatha Christie’s subconscious. And in the generations of the family she saved in Pompeii.
And she’ll never know. It is sad and awful. I’m not happy about it, I just think it was a beautiful, compelling, and absolutely heartbreaking story.
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Paratti on July 6, 2008 5:09 am | Link
I thought it was fabulous and dealt with everything that had to sorted to keep the show going the way it has to. And that wasa tricky writing challenge Rusty really lived up to.
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rusty-halo on July 6, 2008 6:19 am | Link
Seriously! All those characters and plots and themes to wrap up and he did an astounding job.
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