Sexism makes my head hurt
I’m not really pleased about Steven Moffat taking over Doctor Who, mainly because I don’t think better writing is worth giving up the awesome three-dimensional female characters. (And whatever your complaints are about RTD, he’s presided over the creation of a wonderful variety of diverse and interesting female characters–Mrs. Moore, Harriet Jones, Blon Slitheen, Queen Victoria, Ida, Jackie, Rose, Donna…)
From Moffat:
“There’s this issue you’re not allowed to discuss: that women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands.”
Before I read this, I loved his work. Now… I still think his writing is awesome, but Reinette seems accidentally cool, and Sally Sparrow’s “Sally Shipton” slip goes from cute to offensive.
And don’t forget:
“Well, the world is vastly counted in favour of men at every level - except if you live in a civilised country and you’re sort of educated and middle-class, because then you’re almost certainly junior in your relationship and in a state of permanent, crippled apology. Your preferences are routinely mocked. There’s a huge, unfortunate lack of respect for anything male.”
*sigh*
Whatever. I’ll be good and give him the benefit of the doubt. Hopefully the women on the staff will reign in his sexist tendencies, and we’ll get lots of good time travel stories. And if it sucks, I’ll stop watching. Life’s too short to put up with something that makes me want to bang my head against the wall.
Current Mood: 
sad
39 Responses to “Sexism makes my head hurt”
Blue Rose on May 20, 2008 1:22 pm | Link
With all due respect, huh? Sally Sparrow and Reinette were amazing female characters. I’d take Sally over Donna honestly–not that I dislike Donna and all, but really loved Sally. Wish they’d bring her back, even for an episode.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 1:27 pm | Link
Reinette was amazing. Sally didn’t bother me, but I didn’t see anything particularly special about her either.
Regardless, the quotes in that interview are revoltingly sexist, and I would hate to see those attitudes bleed into Doctor Who.
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chloris on May 20, 2008 1:24 pm | Link
Yes, these are the issues I’m worried about with him! I hope that in the context of a season, with other writers contributing, they don’t come into play as often. And he writes some really great stories, so maybe this will be great for the show. It would be easy to get myself worked up about it, but I’m not going get all upset ahead of time.
And the thing is: he’s completely wrong. Women could live without men a hell of a lot easier than men could live without women.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 1:28 pm | Link
Yeah, I didn’t think I even needed to bother explaining why those quotes are wrong. They’re horrid.
I’m reserving judgment, but I’m certainly more wary of the potential for screwed up gender issues after reading those quotes.
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chloris on May 20, 2008 5:56 pm | Link
Yeah, I know and you know it’s obvious, it’s just so hard not say something about them. I’m certainly going to be watching the next two episodes with this news in mind.
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Stacey Riley on May 20, 2008 1:32 pm | Link
And the thing is: he’s completely wrong. Women could live without men a hell of a lot easier than men could live without women.
Exactly. However, I do think his female characters are some of the strongest.
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chloris on May 20, 2008 6:00 pm | Link
He has written some very interesting female characters. I’m more worried about his influence on the season as whole. Will his issues bleed through? Will he be able to write a season that’s emotionally consistent? At this point I’m somewhere in the middle, not terribly happy or unhappy.
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katesutton on May 20, 2008 2:24 pm | Link
Oh, great. The man’s a good writer and I’d never deny that, but he has seriously obnoxious opinions. That part about lack of respect for anything male? Wow, I can smell the entitlement from here. I can’t help but see his attitudes reflected in his work and that makes me apprehensive.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 2:35 pm | Link
Yeah, I know. The poor tragic educated middle-class men. The world is so difficult for them. *rolls eyes*
See, I love his episodes, but knowing he thinks this way makes me take a step back. Would Moffat have cast someone like Catherine Tate, or written characters like Mrs. Moore, Harriet Jones, and Ida? He wrote cute young blonde things who were all about romance–is that his tragically mocked “male preference”? :P
I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt based on the episodes alone, but that interview colors things in a negative way. One of the main things that I love about Doctor Who is the strong, non-traditional female characters. If it loses that, nifty time travel stories will not be enough to keep me around. :(
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 2:38 pm | Link
Oh, and before someone starts screaming at me about Rose being a “cute young blonde thing who [is] all about romance”–no she wasn’t. Rose was all about travel, adventure, and making a difference. The romance was secondary to her characterization, and I actually think she fits right in with the non-traditional female pattern–she has her own hero’s journey and defies her family to reach for the stars (traditionally a masculine archetype–the female ones usually choose home over adventure). Not to mention that Piper is far more curvy and unique-looking than your typical emaciated model-perfect Barbie doll blonde.
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Kita on May 20, 2008 2:48 pm | Link
“lack of respect for anything male”
YES. WON’T SOMEONE THINK OF THE POOR WHITE STRAIGHT MENZ?????
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 2:51 pm | Link
*sigh*
Yeah. I cannot believe the lack of awareness that would lead to those words coming out of his mouth. :(
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queenrikki on May 20, 2008 4:12 pm | Link
At least for me, I’m not please about this either. I can’t pretend that he hasn’t said these things. Or that I think his beliefs won’t influence the show negatively. He is a good writer (mostly) but I don’t think his strengths make up for the rest of it.
Also, I find that I don’t actually like any of his own series (or at least the ones I’ve seen). So it worries me that he’s been given the reigns to this show.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 4:21 pm | Link
Yeah, I’m never going to squee about Moffat the way I do about RTD. I’ll always have “but he’s sexist” in the back of my mind. :(
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Christine on May 20, 2008 4:45 pm | Link
Seriously?
Seriously?
I… really don’t know how to feel about that. He is a great storyteller, but my gut just tells me that him actually running the show - it’s wrong. It makes me very, very afraid.
So, basically yes to this entire entry, and particularly to your first paragraph.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 4:55 pm | Link
I do want to see what he does with the show, but, yeah. All the nifty plots in the world don’t make up for sexist attitudes. :(
I also agree with those who’ve pointed out that Moffat has tended to ignore character continuity in favor of whatever plot he wants to explore. That might change when he is the one directing the arc, but it still makes me wary that he’ll put plot above characterization.
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Christine on May 20, 2008 5:07 pm | Link
Addendum: Having just read mrv3000’s post on the subject, I realised what it was that made my stomach turn - that it will probably be the end of Rose, and the Doctor and Rose. It’s not only them I love, but it’s their characterisation that made me fall so madly in love with the show. It’s the strong point of the show - I’ve never seen better characterisation (of nearly all the characters, as well) and character continuity anywhere else; and it’s the one thing that Moffat is lacking in as a writer (never mind about his attitudes as a human being). That is what scares me. That they’re giving the show to someone who so far hasn’t proven to be very good at that which I love most about it.
RTD has given us these amazing characters, and they’ve been brilliant, because he loves them as much as we do. However wacky he may be at plot, whatever crack he’s smoking, I know I can trust him with the characters. I’ll be very wary once Moffat has taken over.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 5:24 pm | Link
I understand what you mean. I don’t think we’ll know how good Moffat is with long-term characterization until we see how he does when he’s in charge, but I agree that one of the best things about the show now is that RTD is amazing at characterization.
To be honest, I pretty much think Rose’s story ended with “Doomsday.” I love her, but what we’re getting now seems more like an epilogue. (Erm, I’m unspoiled; don’t spoil me.) I’m more concerned with the Tenth Doctor, since he’s the main reason I watch the show. I just… completely adore him, and wouldn’t want to see his characterization change drastically. (That’s assuming Tennant even sticks around post-RTD.)
And I trust RTD to come up with new characters that I’ll adore (Donna!) and not do sexist things that make me want to bash my head against the wall. I don’t know how Moffat will do in that arena.
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Christine on May 20, 2008 5:43 pm | Link
Oh, I agree about Rose. (And I am entirely unspoiled and would like to remain so, too. :-) ) However devastated I was after Doomsday, I always felt that it was perfect. It was a perfect ending to Rose’s story, and to the Doctor and Rose. I never expected that we would actually get a whole series of a mourning Doctor after that. It made me love the show even more. And I was, and still am, utterly terrified at the thought of her return, because it could ruin that perfect ending so easily.
But. I also trust RTD, because he’s never betrayed my trust in his characterisation. And this must be what going mad feels like, but I think I do want DT to leave with RTD. I want them both to give their show a beautiful ending, and to make a clear cut. If they manage that and hand it over to Moffat then, I won’t care what he does with it because the RTD era will be what will always be in my heart. Because just like you, I’m terrified that Ten could change so drastically I wouldn’t recognize him, and I couldn’t bear that.
And I trust RTD to come up with new characters that I’ll adore (Donna!) and not do sexist things that make me want to bash my head against the wall. I don’t know how Moffat will do in that arena.
Yeah, that’s just exactly what it comes down to for me - I trust RTD. Like I said, it’s certainly not only about Rose for me - I ADORE Donna, and I love the Doctor and her together so much. I would be perfectly happy with those two. Moffat definitely has yet to earn that trust. And until he does, I don’t want him to ruin the show I loved. You know?
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 6:06 pm | Link
I am *very* nervous about Rose’s return. I like RTD, but… well, I once trusted Joss Whedon, and that didn’t turn out well for me. So I’m bracing myself, and if Rose’s return ends up being good, I’ll be pleasantly surprised. (And regardless of anything, I will be happy to see her again, even if I dislike how her story ends.)
And… yeah, even though I don’t exactly trust any TV writer, I do think RTD has proven that he is excellent at handling characters (with the occasional exception). So I’ve certainly got more built-up expectation of quality from RTD, particularly because I care more about characters than plot.
Moffat definitely has yet to earn that trust.
Yeah, exactly. Plus, any new showrunner would have to earn my respect, but Moffat has the additional hurdle that his sexist comments don’t particularly give me a lot of confidence.
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Christine on May 20, 2008 6:29 pm | Link
Heh! You know, I was going to say the very same thing about Joss. And then I thought, girl, you really need to stop being bitter about that, and didn’t. But yes - I’ve said pretty much the same thing a lot lately: I once trusted Joss, and he took my heart and tore it to pieces because he could. Because for him, it’s about pain a lot. I remain wary, but I just hope so much that for RTD it’s still about hope, and love, and healing, and all those good things. He is the one person I trust to get it right. *prays to non-existing God*
So I’ve certainly got more built-up expectation of quality from RTD, particularly because I care more about characters than plot.
That’s exactly it for me. I’m all about the emotional content. Characters. And the thing is, they’re often written best in SciFi settings, for whatever reason. Maybe because it demands more change and development than normal drama. I can happily suspend any science, or logic, or whatever, in favour of the awesome characterisation Who has given me. Which I have enjoyed more than on ANY show I’ve seen (with the possible exception of Firefly, and sometimes I’m glad that was taken away from Joss before he could mess that up, as well.)
Plot is wonderful icing on the cake, but what I want are believable characters. A Doctor that mourns for a whole series after the person he loved is gone. He can be Tinkerbell!Doctor all he wants for that.
[…]but Moffat has the additional hurdle that his sexist comments don’t particularly give me a lot of confidence.
EXACTLY.
And I will try to stop obsessing about this now. Really.
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a_white_rain on May 20, 2008 5:26 pm | Link
I’m still new to the show! I don’t want to give it up. But Moffat is the one man who could. I don’t much like ANY of his episodes in context of the rest.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 5:30 pm | Link
I think he’s an incredibly talented writer. I actually liked all of his episodes, even the much-reviled “Girl in the Fireplace.” (Yes, the continuity was bad, but the same thing happened with “The Unicorn and the Wasp.” It seems more a failure of the script supervisors and the fact that the episode order got juggled around.)
If he was a crap writer, I could just go “Meh, sexist ass, not watching.” But the fact that he’s so good makes me want to stick around and hope for the best. *sigh* *crosses fingers*
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a_white_rain on May 20, 2008 5:33 pm | Link
Yeah, but with The Unicorn and the Wasp nothing actually offended me (and with TGitF I know it’s a very subjective thing, it just pushed a lot of my DO NOT WANT buttons) and the guy who wrote it isn’t going to start running the show.
What Moffat does well are things that don’t draw me in much. Character continuity, I believe he sucks balls at. And that’s what I want the most.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 5:37 pm | Link
I just wonder how much control Moffat had, in terms of where in the arc his episode appeared, and how much knowledge he had of what happened in the previous episode. And it is frustrating because, yes, the continuity sucked, but it’s not just Moffat’s fault–ultimately the buck stops with RTD.
I share your wariness of how he’ll deal with character continuity. I’m trying to reserve judgment until I see what he actually does, but yes, it is a big concern.
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a_white_rain on May 20, 2008 5:39 pm | Link
I don’t blame it all on Moffat. I just twitch that he didn’t bother to READ School Reunion before penning GitF. Maybe he’ll do better if he’s in control.
But that he didn’t take the responsibility to make the episode better by doing something basic like reading what happened before the previous episode annoys me. And says a lot about him as a writer.
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redeem147 on May 20, 2008 7:19 pm | Link
Since Moffat has likes the Doctor ‘dancing’ I expect lots of sex, and look forward to fanboys’ heads exploding.
I look not to the writers’ statements, but to what they give on screen. So far, very happy with Mr. Moffat (but do not know how much of what he wrote was Mr. RTD).
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 7:28 pm | Link
It’s always fun to see fanboys’ heads explode. ;)
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violet_lane on May 20, 2008 10:33 pm | Link
I’m hoping for the best; I don’t want to judge him until the show starts. I guess I’m just sad because an arc of Who is ending. RTD isn’t perfect, but I loved a lot of the things he did and I’m going to miss the format of the show. Moffat’s great with plots, but I wonder if he can do arcs and what his Doctor will be like.
I certainly hope he stops making stupid sexist comments like the ones he’s already said. It makes certain moments in his episodes: Nancy having to acknowledge her illegitimate child to save the world, Larry’s sister being allright and happy because she settled down in Victorian times, Sally holding hands with Larry signifying the end of her story as well as saying Sally Shipton just look sketchy.
I hope we get some females in S5 who aren’t looking for a boyfriend, a husband, or a baby. That’d be nice.
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rusty-halo on May 20, 2008 10:55 pm | Link
Yeah, I’d be more willing to forgive those things as just typical narrative conventions if it hadn’t been for the sexist comments. Plus, RTD’s writing goes the traditional route occasionally, but he’s also got the nontraditional to balance it out (lots of female characters who have real three-dimensional characterizations and don’t exist largely in relation to men or family).
I mean, look at characters like Mrs. Moore, Harriet Jones, Blon Slitheen, Ida–all very different, but not about traditionally “female” concerns at all. So many shows give all the three-dimensional parts to men and then have “and the girl.” None of these characters are “the girl”–they’re the parts that other shows would’ve given to men: resistance fighter, Prime Minister, morally ambiguous alien, explorer.
Plus, I think all of RTD’s main female characters intentionally subvert sexist cliches. Rose starts out as little red riding hood and becomes the Bad Wolf. Her story is a hero’s journey–she grows up and chooses adventure, travel, and the ability to help others over staying home with her family. Much as I think Martha was lacking, the fact that she got over the crush on her own was excellent. And Donna is wonderful–it’s so rare to see a middle-aged woman treated as an interesting and sympathetic character, and especially to see one whose story is about learning more about herself and the universe rather than about being a mom or wife. And if you look at Sarah Jane, same thing: she becomes a mother, yes, but her main role is hero–she’s the Doctor of her own show. It is so rare and wonderful to see see an older woman treated as an interesting three-dimensional character and not an evil queen or a mom/grandma, y’know?
Moffat doesn’t have that kind of track record. As you pointed out, all of his female characters fit into a bit of a dodgy pattern. Hopefully he’ll break it as his work progresses, but those sexist comments give me a lot to worry about.
And, yeah, regardless of anything else, it’s sad that RTD is leaving. I love him! *sniffle*
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anduril on May 21, 2008 8:59 am | Link
Is it confirmed Moffat will take over?
Love him as a writr, but I don’t know how he deals with arc-based story. Coupling is more of a single-plot sitcom, while RTD has the experience of creating arc story from Queer As Folk.
I also believe RTD’s strong female characters do not 100% his creation. I think Phil Collinson and Julie Gardner did have a couple of input in terms of characters, you just cannot write simplistic female characters with these two onboard. If Moffat takes over, I do not know how much of the input he will receive from others.
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rusty-halo on May 21, 2008 10:51 am | Link
Yes, it’s confirmed. And I think Collinson and Gardner have both left or are leaving by the time Moffat takes over.
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tigtog on May 28, 2008 1:56 am | Link
I thought Moffat did at least write a strong female character for Gina Bellman as the wife in Jekyll. She’s suddenly thrust into a very dangerous situation which she’d been deliberately kept ignorant of and keeps her cool thoughout. She wanted her husband, and watns to save him, but she wasn’t needy.
The supporting female characters playing the private investigators were strong too, and to this het’s eye a convincing & sympathetic lesbian couple.
The ending could have been better, but the thing about Jekyll was that I wanted to know more about the characters, even when the story went a little off the rails.
Also, the article’s from 2004. Perhaps some more enlightened souls have shown him the error of his ways since then. Particularly about how little girls playing at being married is simply imitation of the adult gender roles they see in, amongst other places, TV shows, rather than being a deep expression of a need to be partnered.
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Kari on July 24, 2009 9:19 am | Link
I know I’m late to the party here, but I’m seriously scratching my head at all the RTD love here, especially in light of Journey’s End.
Have a look at Rose’s arc in Series 4. She comes back in Turn Left, and she’s brilliant on her own. The Doctor appears, and she becomes totally and completely useless. The only purpose Rose had in TST/JE was to get the Doctor shot so that the DoctorDonna and Other Doctor could be created. I was infuriated when it was revealed that Rose had spent all her time in the parallel world trying to get back here (well before the Darkness started…Listen to the dialogue. She says that she started working on a way to get back as soon as she got there) after the Doctor explicitly told her that it was too dangerous. Want to talk about women with a desperate need to be part of a couple (A character trait Donna had in spades as well)? Rose is so desperate to get back to the Doctor that she’s willing to gamble the countless lives in two universes!
I so wanted Rose to come back strong, having learned the lesson of School Reunion and moved on with her life. If nothing else, it would have made the annoying characterization of Sarah Jane in that episode worth it. Give me a break! The Sarah Jane we saw in K9 and Company and The Five Doctors was not pining away for the Doctor. She was getting on with her life. And don’t get me started on the “Sex and the City catfight” that RTD thought was so vital to that episode. *rolleyes*
RTD also seems to have real issues with Mothers. His mothers tend to be harpies: Francine, Sylvia, Gwen’s and Rhys’s Moms from Torchwood and Chrissy on the SJA. (Rani’s Mom really has been too bland to be considered much of anything at this point.)
Sarah Jane herself doesn’t count as a counter example because she’s not RTD’s creation, Lis Sladen would never let him turn Sarah into a harpy, and it wouldn’t serve the narrative to have the title character of a children’s show be a bad mother. I think it really says something when Jackie Tyler is the best mother character that RTD has created.
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rusty-halo on July 24, 2009 11:21 am | Link
Rose got the Doctor shot? Wait, who’s being sexist here?
“Journey’s End” had a billion things crammed into it and still ran over time–that’s why they put the focus on Rose into “Turn Left.” She didn’t stop being awesome; she was just moved into the background to let the other characters shine.
I disagree with your entire premise about the “lesson” of “School Reunion” and with your characterization of Rose’s determination to return to the Doctor. I’ve explained here how a feminist can love Rose’s story arc. (And here again, with more head-desking.) Those posts are the appropriate place on my blog for this discussion, not this post about Steven Moffat.
I am totally with you on RTD’s mother issues and on Owen the date rapist–I never said RTD was perfect, but he’s a hell of a lot better than Moffat. I have to disagree with you about Sarah Jane, though–yes, she was already awesome, but it would’ve been easy to ruin her. Instead RTD kept her strong and interesting and is responsible for one of the (if not the) only sci-fi shows with an older woman as the heroic lead.
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Kari on July 24, 2009 2:13 pm | Link
Ok, first off, imho, nobody got to shine in Journey’s End. It was too much of a muddled mess.
When I say that Rose’s whole purpose in Journey’s End was to get the Doctor shot, it’s because of the time loop thing that is actually going on there that very few people notice.
Pete’s World is ahead of us in time, but the Darkness originates in our Universe. Davros makes that clear when he talks about the waves from the Reality Bomb crossing through the Medusa Cascade into all Universes.
How can the Darkness then have affected Pete’s World, when the Reality Bomb was never set off in ours?
The answer is, there are two different versions of those events that both happened from the perspective of people in Pete’s World. The first time through, there was no Doctor/Donna, no Other Doctor, and therefore Davros succeeded. The bomb was set off and this caused the barriers between the Universes to start to collapse.
When the barriers of the Universe went down, Rose’s horribly misguided attempt to get back to the Doctor (I say horribly misguided because she was playing dice with the lives of everyone in both universes, and that strikes me as horribly selfish, and not romantic or heroic.) just happened to start working.
Rose travels to our Universe, and also goes back in time, joining events, just in time to affect things. And then she and the Doctor both run at each other like complete idiots down the middle of the street in a Dalek occupied city. Yes, the Doctor bears responsibility for his part in the boneheaded running, but I maintain that within the narrative, that’s pretty much the only reason for Rose being there.
As to why I posted here, rather than in your “How a feminist could love Rose” piece, it is because I read your Steven Moffat piece, with interest, but was bewildered by how anyone could find RTD’s writes most of his female characters acceptable, let alone go on about how great they are. And frankly, a writer really doesn’t get to control the tangents that a reader’s brain goes off on as a result of reading their piece. And I am the first to admit, I am very tangental.
As far as RTD it being easy for RTD to ruin Sarah Jane goes, I think you’re missing an important point. Only Lis Sladen can be Sarah Jane, and she is very protective of that character. She has turned down involvement in Doctor Who in the past as Sarah Jane because she didn’t like the way the character was written. John Nathan Turner really had to work to get her to be involved in K9 and Company. If anybody had plans to turn Sarah Jane into Francine or Chrissy, she would have simply refused to film the scenes.
A new actor, coming into a new character who objects too much about how their character is written will just be replaced with someone else. They can’t do that with Lis Sladen. Not that I think anyone on the production team would try. All the old fans on staff just seem a little too much in awe of her.
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Kari on July 24, 2009 9:44 am | Link
Oh, and while we’re at it? RTD?
The same writer who created Owen’s date rape pheromone and wrote those horrible scenes where it was all treated as a joke?
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