Boobiegate
Just a couple of things to add regarding that whole “Boobie” groping debacle.
1. ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
linaerys points out that part of the reason this is so offensive is that it’s predicated on the idea that sex is something that women give and men take.
2. soundingsea calls him on complete misuse of the term “open source.”
3. His “apology” is nothing but a defensive self-pitying flounce. If he was actually sorry, he’d have left comments on and allowed the conversations that were happening there to continue. I can’t believe people are giving him credit for this whiny bullshit.
4. The guy who initiated it is not some naive idealistic little fanboy. He’s a misogynist asshole who has been pulling this shit for years.
In 2005, theferrett wrote:
This strange shyness always confused me; after all, wasn’t that the whole reason you dressed up? The idea was to make yourself sexy and alluring, and to me I was just answering the only question that could truly tell you whether you’d succeeded: yes, you have made yourself so attractive that I’d like to bang you. Thanks for asking!
But a lot of the females I knew had this weird disconnect; they wanted men to flirt with them, but they wanted men to remain in some strange, cartoon-like asexual zone until they were ready to have sex. The men were supposed to be turned on, but only in a clinical fashion that was absolutely separate from their genitalia. The idea that an unauthorized male might be sporting an erection over their jiggling breasts was creepy to them, even if they’d gone to great lengths to make the tops of those breasts easily visible. In fact, I knew several women who dressed like hookers who got really upset when someone they didn’t know told them they had a nice ass.
“You put the ass out there,” I’d say. “You wrapped it so tightly in leather that it looks like a black version of your naked butt. Considering you went to such lengths to display the ass, why are you upset when someone notices it?”
They usually didn’t take too well to that.
I viewed it as a control issue, and a slightly selfish one at that. Yes, I understand the whole “take back the night” issue, and I support the death penalty for serial rapists. But these guys aren’t rapists; they’re enthusiasts. You dressed to provoke a certain reaction, and you got that reaction — just not from the guy you were hoping to attract. And yeah, I’m sorry that the guy was enough of a lout to think that waxing rhapsodic over your boobs was sweet talk that would inevitably lead to the boudoir, and I can even get that it’s tiresome fending off the aroused masses… but the idea that he was wrong for approaching you is just stupid.
You went trolling for men.
(The comments, btw, are full of people CHEERING HIM ON.)
Because the only reason I’d ever dress up is to appeal to straight men. Because it has nothing to with the fact that I thought the outfit was pretty, or I liked the way I looked in it, or I hoped to appeal to other women, or maybe that it was summer and I wanted to avoid sweltering in the hot weather?
No. The only possible reason is that I was “trolling for men.” Because, after all, the world revolves around the desires of straight men. And I’m a frigid bitch for not wanting them to sexually harass me in response.
sparkysrevenge added that maybe women are dressed in costume because they like playing in character, not because they want to get sexually harassed. And I’m sure there are plenty of other reasons why a woman might dress up that have nothing to do with men, a fact that this guy can’t even fathom.
(And then it brings up the whole issue that most female characters, even the kickass ones, wear ridiculously revealing outfits. And that fact that women are taught from a young age that the most important thing they can be is “pretty.” Because our culture is infused with the idea that women exist for the pleasure of men.)
And one of the few sane commenters on the original post asked who gets to decide when a woman’s clothes have “crossed the line” and opened her up to public sexual harassment. (The men, of course, and they decide based on whatever criteria they fucking want.)
5. I keep seeing responses along the lines of “Well, I’m glad I don’t go to conventions,” or “I won’t be attending conventions anymore.” And that breaks my heart, because conventions are mostly awesome. You get to hang out with fellow geeks and squee over the things that make you happy and it’s usually wonderful. Please don’t let this misogynist asshole taint the entire world of conventions for you. Not to mention that this sort of behavior is certainly not limited to sci-fi conventions; I get more harassment walking down the street in NYC than I’ve ever gotten at a con. You’re not going to avoid it by avoiding cons, but you are going to miss a lot of convention fun if you let this keep you away.
Current Mood: 
frustrated
34 Responses to “Boobiegate”
white rain on April 23, 2008 12:54 pm | Link
At school, and don’t have enough time to sign in. But wow. Just. No. I DO NOT DRESS OR THINK OR ACT OR ANTYHING ABOUT GETTING YOU TURNED ON. And even if I do, you have no right to assume that.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 1:11 pm | Link
I know! Dear straight men: THE UNIVERSE DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU.
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a_white_rain on April 23, 2008 4:53 pm | Link
THAT NEEDS TO BE AN ICON.
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RevDorothyL on April 23, 2008 1:54 pm | Link
I’m saddened, as well, at the thought of women not attending conventions because they think conventions are harrassment-prone. In my experience (attending mostly smaller, fan-run Midwestern U.S. conventions) the convention has always been a safe place (comparatively speaking) for women like me, where the dominant fannish ethos meant that no matter what you chose to wear (or not wear), no male had the right to touch without your explicit permission — and if someone violated the social contract in force at the convention and crossed the line, there were always other fen ready to step in and show the offending person to the door.
Am I just hopelessly out of date, or have the jerks who don’t want to observe the dominant fannish code of behavior simply found themselves a soapbox online, from which to try to convince the rest of the world that THEIR skewed view of fannish freedom should somehow be adopted by the rest of us?
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 2:07 pm | Link
You’re not hopelessly out of date–this guy is just an unbelievable asshole. :(
And I agree, the standard of behavior at the conventions I’ve been to generally feels a lot more safe than the “real world.” I would never wear the outfits I wear to DragonCon on the streets of NYC. Conventions are supposed to be a fantasy space where I can play dress up with other fans and not have to deal with real world harassment.
I’ve had a few unpleasant experiences. People at DragonCon sometimes ask for photos with me, and if I’m in the mood, I’ll agree. Once I was in a hurry to get somewhere and said no, and the guys started insulting me in response, as if I was obligated to allow them access to me. And once a guy tried to take my picture when I was in a bad mood, and I said no, and he snapped that I shouldn’t have dressed up if I didn’t want to pose for photos. Which once again comes down to I’M DRESSING UP FOR ME, NOT FOR YOU. And men just can’t seem to fathom that womens’ choices don’t revolve around them.
But still, that’s two incidents in five years of DragonCon. And I haven’t had anything bad happen at other conventions (well, except for getting groped by an unbelievably sleazy minor celebrity when I got a photo with him, but he certainly wasn’t buying into the convention ethos). In comparison, I get nasty comments on my walk home from work every single day.
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10zlaine on April 23, 2008 2:52 pm | Link
This morning, at the YWCA, all alone in the weight room while I had 190# on my shoulders, I was so sad there wasn’t a guy around to appreciate me in my skin-tight exercise shorts.
Had there been, I’d totes been all about going up to him and shyly asking him to grope my ass.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 2:54 pm | Link
Yep. Because you could never be a confident woman without the approval that comes from some asshole wanting to grope you.
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10zlaine on April 23, 2008 2:05 pm | Link
I got a couple new links if you haven’t seen them on my post here.
This is just so frustrating; I can’t stop thinking about it.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 2:09 pm | Link
Excellent. Thank you. I hadn’t seen all of those.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 2:15 pm | Link
And, yeah. I know what you mean about not being able to stop thinking about it. I had a hard time falling asleep last night because I was so upset. (And then, walking to work today, and getting on the subway, just noticing the way half the men walking by would size me up. Ugh.)
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jwaneeta on April 23, 2008 2:55 pm | Link
My jaw is hanging. I can’t believe it: not only that he wants approval from women for his objectification and harrassment of women, but that he feels so massively entitled and secure in his boorishness that it’s safe to post publicly about it. What the FUCK.
I hope this pasty leering turd goes to San Diego Con. If I so much as lay eyes on him there I’m talking to Security.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 2:58 pm | Link
He’s an enlightened nice guy! It’s not his fault we’re just a bunch of uptight prudes! If only we’d see the light and realize how much joy we could bring to the world, if only we’d let random strange men grope our breasts.
Seriously. If you see him at Comic Con? Kick him in the nuts for me.
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JayDK on April 23, 2008 3:05 pm | Link
I have to say, this whole thing is making me seriously reconsider DragonCon, because as much fun as it is, there’s also a lot of women acting out Low Self Esteem Theater and a lot of creepy wankers enjoying a free show. I love getting to talk about my favorite books and shows, and yet there’s the rest of it — there’s always at least a few moments every time when I’m cringing and feeling sort of disgusted with myself for supporting the atmosphere by being there.
That’s always been my issue with cons — they’re both fun and creepy for me. I enjoy the panels and stuff, and yet there’s a lot of fan behavior that I find just awful to be around and to be associated with. So I dunno — I’m going to have to think about it, I guess. People like this guy certainly push me into not wanting to be anywhere near it.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 3:16 pm | Link
I’m so sorry. I hate that this asshole is making you feel this way.
I do understand where you’re coming from, but it feels like letting them win if we give up the things we enjoy because these assholes make us uncomfortable.
It would be like saying I don’t want to live in the city any more, because I’m statistically less likely to get harassed if I live in the suburbs and take a car everywhere. Dammit, I love this city, and I am not going to let the jerks drive me away.
I love DragonCon so much. It’s my favorite time of year. I love how it’s oriented toward fan creativity, how most of the panels are run by fans and invite the audience to participate. I love how, compared to the “real world” where my fannish interests make me feel like a freak, I can go to DragonCon and revel in the fact that, dammit, I’m a geek and proud of it. And I can share my fannish squee with other people who understand what I’m talking about, and who aren’t going to make me feel ashamed and embarrassed for having the interests I have. I know that some ugly stuff happens there, but I try not to let it overcome the many wonderful things that happen.
And I love sharing it with you and Tammy. I’m not trying to guilt you into it–if the discomfort ruins the fun for you, then you shouldn’t feel obligated to go. But… we finally have a shared fannish interest again. And Doctor Who is having an amazing season. I want to go there and attend all the Doctor Who panels and share the squee with you. And I hate so much that these assholes are ruining the fun for you. :(
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JayDK on April 23, 2008 5:06 pm | Link
I know! There’s so much I genuinely love about DragonCon — that’s why I keep going. And especially with Doctor Who this year, I know there will be panels and discussions that I won’t want to miss. Plus I love hanging out with you and Tammy, of course.
But it’s not all good stuff, unfortunately, and I do have this feeling that by paying to be a part of DragonCon, I’m supporting the gross stuff too. And why is that stuff automatically a part of cons? There’s so much to be proud of — the creativity, the fun, the art and music, the variety of interests and activities. And then there’s the guys drooling over boobies and the girls treating minor media celebrities like meat. I just always end up in this place of wondering — did the good outweigh the gross?
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 5:44 pm | Link
*sigh* I know. It’s sad. :(
I don’t think that by paying, we are automatically supporting the gross stuff that goes on. Most of it is not endorsed by the con itself–it’s stuff that people do on their own, and that they’d be doing anyway regardless of whether or not we’re there.
I think that by attending and participating in the non-exploitative stuff, we’re making a statement that the con *isn’t* just about the gross. We’re contributing to the good.
And, yeah, a lot of it makes me feel icky, too. I mean, I’m certainly not attending any of the Masters panels; I’m still scrubbing my brain from that woman running onstage and taking off her shirt in 2003. But I’m going to spend most of my time on the Brit track, and the Goth music panels, and the YA Lit track, and the concerts, and I feel like, yeah, while I’ll see some offensive stuff in the hallways, I can control my experience enough that I’ll see more good than gross.
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jwaneeta on April 23, 2008 3:40 pm | Link
I’m going to pop in, because I work in comics and go to cons. I understand how you feel, but please don’t let this putrescent creep wreck your fan experience.
Women have a right to like comics and sci-fi and fantasy and cosplay, and they have a right to convene. And as more women participate — and many more do now than when I first started in the industry — the creeptastic letchy clubhouse atmosphere dissipates by degrees. Seriously, it’s a lot better now than it was when I first started.
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JayDK on April 23, 2008 4:48 pm | Link
I don’t mind you popping in at all. I definitely agree with you is that women have a right to like comics and sci-fi, but at these cons, I often feel as if some of the con goers have decided three days of talking about their favorite book or show or interest also means three days in which they no longer need to act like adults and care about how their words and deeds affect the people around them. It’s not fun for me, it makes me uncomfortable and frankly, it creeps me out on several different levels. In the worst moments, I’m ashamed for them and I’m ashamed for myself at being there.
There’s a lot I love about DragonCon — the panels are awesome, it’s wonderful to be able to pursue several different fannish hobbies, and I love discovering new interests and pursuits. I enjoy the art, the music, the discussions, the people-watching, the elaborate costumes. I love the parade and I love that if someone wants to be a Klingon for three or four days, then this is their time to do it, loud and proud. But man, there is a scuzzy side to it and as a woman, there is a lot of behavior that makes me feel grossed out. The awesome and the creeptastic letchy behavior are just so side by side, and I have to wonder if by continuing to pay to attend, I’m essentially supporting both, like it or not.
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Chenanceou on April 23, 2008 4:00 pm | Link
I’m jumping in without actually having all the facts, but as a casual observer I think I’m able to say – with no fear of being off the mark – that this guy can go fuck himself because he’s the only one who would.
But that’s just my opinion.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 4:05 pm | Link
You’re not off the mark at all. The more of it you read, the more horrifying it gets. :(
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cindergal on April 23, 2008 5:20 pm | Link
Does this idiot even realize how close he is skating to the whole “she dressed provocatively so she deserved to be groped/sexually assaulted/raped” thing?
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 5:35 pm | Link
I honestly can’t imagine what’s going on inside his brain. Maybe he thinks women are making it up? Or that those women really did “ask for it”?
*cries*
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Beck on April 23, 2008 7:41 pm | Link
You might find this interesting. It’s an IP lawyer’s response to the open source thing, and it’s quite good.
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 9:24 pm | Link
That is an excellent post. Thank you.
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txvoodoo on April 23, 2008 9:12 pm | Link
You know something, about the cons issue – I’d gone to a lot of cons in the 80s, and was turned off by this type of attitude. Then, we had the Buffy cons. And I adored them. Perhaps because they were predominantly women, and a “safe place”?
Not sure. But there it is!
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 9:20 pm | Link
Yeah, I don’t think we would have had to deal with this kind of “movement” at a Buffy con. Not just more women, but more feminists, were in attendance.
My problem with most of the Buffy cons was the emphasis on celebrities, and fans as passive consumers (of increasingly price-gouged crap). The exception being Writercon, which was all about fan creativity.
I like DragonCon because they’ve got tons of participatory fan programming; I can spend fours day there and never get bored, without attending a single celebrity panel or spending a dime beyond the basic ticket price. It’s got a lot more of that “fans as creators/active interpreters” attitude.
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txvoodoo on April 23, 2008 9:26 pm | Link
*nod* the heavy commercialism got to me, and franly, they’re now priced out of anything I’d consider paying.
I’d like to do Dragoncon someday, maybe. It’s so BIG, though, and I have issues these days with that MANY people in one place. Hopefully, I’ll get over that :D
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rusty-halo on April 23, 2008 9:31 pm | Link
Normally I’d be talking DragonCon up and telling you how wonderful it is, but today I’m not really in the mood. *sigh* :(
Chances are I’m still going, though (this’ll be my sixth year), and I’d love to see you there someday. It really is mostly awesome. (And hey, this year? Marsters and the guy who plays Ianto!)
There are a lot of people. I kind of enjoy the anonymity of the crowd, though; as long as I don’t have to engage with people, I’m okay. But I know everyone handles it differently.
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txvoodoo on April 23, 2008 10:02 pm | Link
Yah, it’s part of my current issues w/ anxiety and stuff that I’m not doing group things well. The county caucus was REALLY pushing it for me, and I got there super-early to avoid being in big queues.
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soundingsea on April 24, 2008 12:05 am | Link
I’m just sighing because I’ve totally encountered Home Sapiens Creepy Fanboy. But thankfully, he’s not a con majority. At the main con I attend (local midwest fan-run), there’s a strong female presence. When you’ve got women in charge at Operations and running many of the parties, there’s going to be a “don’t even think about it” atmosphere. :)
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rusty-halo on April 24, 2008 1:47 am | Link
It really does make such a difference. Who’s in the majority and who’s in charge changes the tone completely.
*misses Writercon*
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Mary on April 24, 2008 1:43 am | Link
The “and lo”’s in the original post were enough to make me throw up in my mouth a little.
My only experience with cons has been WriterCon I & II – both were, as you know, almost exclusively women. It never occurred to me that most cons wouldn’t be much like them but with more of a balance between men and women. And possibly more costumes. :-)
Honestly, if I branched off and attended one of the other cons and someone approached me wanting to know if I wanted a ‘red button’ or a ‘green button’, I think I’d be giving in to a major wig.
And Laura, just so you know – I’ve seen you in a corset and I thought you looked lovely. But really? Asking to grope your boobs never crossed my mind… I am so hopelessly mundane.
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rusty-halo on April 24, 2008 1:53 am | Link
I was throwing up in my mouth for the whole thing. But especially the “are my breasts good enough?” and “the chick in the revealing outfit was totally asking for it.”
Writercon is like… a heavenly feminist utopia compared to most of the cons out there. (I wish so much that we were doing it again this year.)
I can’t believe these men think that this is some kind of enlightened geek boy philosophy instead of just, y’know, the same old “women’s bodies are property that exists for the sole purpose of pleasing men” that we’ve been get for the last forever.
*sigh*
I wish these guys weren’t giving cons a bad name, because there’s so much good in most of them. You get to revel in all your geeky glory without shame. I just wish the sexism and objectification of the real world didn’t follow us into fantasy convention world too. :(
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