Dammit, Rose Tyler kicks ass.
You can’t go five minutes in Doctor Who fandom without hearing how Rose Tyler has been the ruin of New Who. And every time I read that no educated, self-respecting feminist could relate to that bleached blonde shopgirl chav, I die a little bit inside. So, um, here’s why I like Rose Tyler and think she’s a great character.
Rose is brave, impulsive, even reckless, qualities we usually see valorized in men rather than women. Rose is an active rather than reactive character. She genuinely relishes new experiences, and seeks out adventures on her own, even when it means breaking rules and getting into dangerous situations. Sure, sometimes she gets in trouble (”Girl in the Fireplace”), but just as often she solves the problem (”Fear Her,” “Rose”) or does both (”The Idiot’s Lantern”). And no wonder she gets along so well with the Doctor; his life is all about waltzing impulsively into dangerous situations and both getting himself into trouble and saving the day.
Rose has a genuine sense of joy at being alive and seeing the universe. This is one of the things that makes her a good match for the Doctor, and why being with her so revitalizes him after the trauma of the Time War.
She’s compassionate and empathetic. Rose always sees the human details. She reaches out to the individuals that the Doctor misses, and she not only comforts them, but she learns a lot from communicating with them, which generally helps in solving the problem of the week. Yeah, sometimes she’s caught up in her own fun and doesn’t coddle everyone around her (which apparently makes her the Antichrist in certain fan circles) but when it comes to the big things, she puts those she cares about before herself; I love that her first response to the Autons is to warn her mother, and even when she thinks she’s about to die in “Dalek,” Rose’s concern is to reassure the Doctor that her death isn’t his fault.
She learns. Rose isn’t highly educated, but she’s smart. (One of my pet peeves is the assumption that uneducated must equal stupid.) Rose watches the Doctor, sees what works, picks up skills from him, and uses them to the best of her ability. She figures out “Bad Wolf” and remembers how to open the heart of the TARDIS; how is that not daring and awesome? Or look at when she stands up to the Sycorax; it doesn’t work, but at least she tries. I love watching her quote everything she’s seen in series one in an attempt to intimidate them. Rose communicates with the werewolf and rallies the women to get out of their chains in “Tooth and Claw.” By “The Satan Pit” we really see her experiences coming to fruition, as she takes charge and inspires the crew when the Doctor isn’t around. She takes charge again in “Fear Her” when the Doctor’s stuck in a drawing (oh, how I love Rose beating through the door with a pickaxe); by the end of Rose’s arc she’s become quite competent and effective.
I like that Rose feels real. I have a lot of problems with television (especially American television) because the women are always so Barbie-doll perfect. They’ve got this constant self-consciousness, always posing attractively, always perfectly dressed (even when Buffy has to work fast food to support herself, she’s got some flawless trendy new outfit in each episode) and perfectly made up (why is it that every female character in the history of television wakes up in the middle of the night with her makeup on flawlessly?) and so on.
But Rose wears jeans and t-shirts and regular clothes. She tries out different outfits, some of which don’t quite work. (Um, gigantic Union Jack t-shirt, anyone?) She wears too much mascara and her hair is badly bleached and when she cries, her makeup runs down her face. And she bounces around and has fun and I don’t feel her consciously posing or worrying if the angle is flattering; she just *is*.
Rose makes her own decisions. She’s not just an active character in terms of getting into adventures; she’s strong-willed, and she has the strength to defy everyone around her to make her own choices about the course of her life. Twice she goes against everyone around her, both the Doctor and her family, in order to return to her life with the Doctor (in “The Parting of the Ways” and “Doomsday”).
Rose chooses a life of travel, adventure, and change over a life of static domesticity. I really just can’t fathom why people think it would be good for Rose to stay home with her mother instead of living her own life. I don’t think Jackie’s a bad person, but she’s unhealthily attached to Rose. It makes sense; Jackie lost her carefree husband, spent her life living for her child, and is terrified that she’ll end up losing Rose, too. Jackie wants Rose to never change, to never grow, to never take risks, to always be limited to the same experiences and choices that Jackie had. That isn’t healthy or good for either of them.
People keep bitching that Rose had “everything she could want” at the end of “Doomsday” and didn’t appreciate it. But that’s just it, she didn’t have what she wanted; she had a family unit, but that’s not enough to make a life. She’s got other people who care about her but she has no life of her own. Everything she wanted, the life she chose for herself, has been torn away.
I really just can’t see how leaving the parental nest and embarking out into the universe on your own is supposed to be a bad thing, or how “growing up” should mean giving up on adventures and settling back down with your codependent mother and non-father and the boyfriend who’d rather go to the pub and watch sports than comfort you after your job blows up.
I think people must worry because they see a power imbalance in Rose giving up “her life” in favor of the Doctor’s. But that’s the thing, it’s not Rose’s life she’s giving up, it’s the life Jackie wants for her. When Rose sees the universe with the Doctor, that becomes her life. That’s how she wants to live.
It’s not a one-sided relationship; Rose and the Doctor grow together, and by the end they’ve become partners: he sees the big picture, she sees the little details, and they work as a team. (We explicitly see them presenting themselves as and behaving as partners by the end of their arc, in “The Idiot’s Lantern” and “Fear Her” especially.)
And people complain that she doesn’t challenge him, just lets him push her around or something–I honestly can’t understand this argument. Because she does defy him when she wants to: she goes after her father in “Father’s Day” and “Rise of the Cybermen,” she calls him out for getting into her head and not being honest with her in “The End of the World” and not caring about Mickey in “Rose.” But the whole point is that, as their relationship progresses, they understand each other better and he does start to see the human side because he learns from her. And so he’s less insensitive around her and she has fewer issues to call him on. This doesn’t mean she’s weak, it just means he’s grown.
Rose isn’t perfect; she can be selfish, impulsive, and insensitive. She grows and develops and makes mistakes and learns and regresses and struggles and acts like a real nineteen/twenty year old human woman. Flaws are what make a character three-dimensional and interesting.
Rose starts out just drifting through life, knowing she somehow wants more but not knowing what it is, and she finds it. She discovers a life of adventure and experience and the ability to make a real difference. And then she has to deal with the consequences–that going off to live her own life means leaving her family behind. She’s young enough that she’s still figuring out who she is and what she wants, so of course she’s going to take some missteps along the way.
Rose makes big mistakes. She’d love to have it both ways–to travel the universe with the Doctor and then come home and have a mother and boyfriend waiting for her. Part of her journey is the realization that she’s being cruel to them–that she can’t leave people behind and expect them to still be there when she gets back. That she has to choose between staying in a small, comfortable place and living a predictable life with predictable people, or going out into the universe, experiencing danger and wonder, and changing, growing apart, losing that connection with the people she’s left behind.
Rose is insensitive toward Jackie; she’s like any young person breaking away from her childhood and growing up. It has to happen; it’s good for Rose to grow up, but of course she could visit/call/reassure her mother more than she does. But it’s realistic that she doesn’t, because that’s how young people are, and anyway, perfect characters are boring.
Rose keeps Mickey dangling, long past when she should. He’s the second choice, the safety in case her big adventurous life doesn’t work out. It’s not fair to him, although he is complicit in letting her neglect him and always crawling back when she calls. She even uses the Doctor at times, to get what she wants (particularly in “Fathers’ Day”). She lets her emotions get away with her, running off to see her AU!family. She tries out different guys, too, dragging along Adam and Jack while still flirting with the Doctor and keeping Mickey in the background, and she’s not always perfectly sensitive about it, but that’s because she’s young and we’re watching her in the process of figuring these things out. How does she relate to people and what does she want out of life? That’s her journey.
Rose makes her choice, in “The Parting of the Ways,” that she wants the universe, even when it means giving up the safe life that she had. And I love that it’s her choice, that she actively makes it despite the Doctor sending her home and her family encouraging her to stay, because it shows a woman who knows what she wants and will take risks to get it.
And then I hear that Rose is static in series two, but I don’t see that at all. She’s already made her choice, and series two is all about her dealing with the consequences. She realizes that she’s not the first companion, that there have been others before her and will be others after her. That the Doctor’s quite socially clueless and doesn’t necessarily share 21st century ideas about relationships. That Mickey really wasn’t going to be around forever; that he’s chosen a life of his own and won’t be there for her anymore. That being with the Doctor means frequent danger and that he never will want to settle down. She deals with all that, understands that this life will have its struggles, and after all that, with her eyes open, she still chooses it.
And then fate tears her away. But they could’ve so easily had her choose “normal” and “family” and “safety” and instead she chooses adventure and love and risk, and that’s why I adore Rose.
[Cross-posted to InsaneJournal]
Current Mood: 
accomplished
95 Responses to “Dammit, Rose Tyler kicks ass.”
kita0610 on March 1, 2008 9:37 pm | Link
I’m a Rose fan too. And a Martha fan. And a Jack fan.
The thing I wonder is why fandom seems to insist these things be mutually exclusive of eachother.
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txvoodoo on March 1, 2008 9:48 pm | Link
I don’t know, and I wish I did.
I adore them all, as characters. They add to the rich mix.
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 10:16 pm | Link
The thing I wonder is why fandom seems to insist these things be mutually exclusive of eachother.
I mostly blame it on the prominence of shipping. If the Doctor’s hung up on Rose, then he’s not getting with Martha. And if he’s having fun with Martha, then he’s not adequately mourning his epic romance with Rose. And if he keeps traveling with all these women then they’re ruining the homoerotic subtext. Or something.
And, yeah, I like some characters and dislike others, but it’s due to how well I think they’re written and whether I can relate to them. It’s not because of ship wars or because I think one character threatens the importance of another.
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mylittleburden on March 2, 2008 7:27 am | Link
iawtc. just because you like one doesn’t mean you can’t like the others, in different ways and for different reasons, probably, but still.
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snakey on March 1, 2008 9:41 pm | Link
I’ve seen a nasty amount of classism in people’s hate for Rose :(
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jerrymcl89 on March 1, 2008 10:03 pm | Link
Which is odd, in that the entire point of her character is that she’s eminently capable of rising above her circumstances if given the opportunity, and the Doctor is the opportunity.
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 10:18 pm | Link
Exactly! You phrased that so well. And people totally ignore everything she accomplishes and all of her growth in order to bitch and whine about how she’s an uneducated mascara-ridden bleached-blonde chav who could never amount to anything and how dare she take up space on their television. *eyeroll*
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 10:23 pm | Link
Oh, man, I know. I didn’t want to turn this into a rant about “isms” but there’s so much classism and sexism in the way people criticize Rose. They ignore everything she accomplishes and just make reference to her markers of class (her accent, hair, clothes, makeup, social background, education, etc) as if that explains everything about why you’d dislike her. I don’t mind if people have actual reasons for disliking her (I might not agree but I can respect differing opinions) but when they just use her class as a shortcut I get so fed up.
And a lot of criticism is sexist, too, because it’s all “How dare she abandon her family in favor of travel and adventure!?” when that’s practically the story of every male hero ever and no one complains.
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Ace on February 7, 2010 12:56 am | Link
Yeah. You see people going ‘oh she’s a cheap slag’ and all this complete rubbish, just because she comes form a lower class background. But to me, that’s something to love about Rose - she didn’t come into this world hosed and shod; it was her intelligence and her drive and curiosity that have allowed her to achieve things. And in some ways she’s more down to earth and real than a character from a higher-class background would be; she had to work for things to get them, even basic things!
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estepheia on March 1, 2008 9:42 pm | Link
I wasn’t even aware that fandom hates Rose. I love that character. She feels incredibly real to me. It was a clever ploy to team the doctor up with someone who feels like someone you might talk to in the queue at the fish and chips shop round the corner.
I didn’t like her at once since I’m a little allergic to blondes, but I quickly came to like her. I am usually more critical of female characters, especially if I feel they are a man’s invention. Rose, on the other hand, is unusually authentic.
ETA: and - like Kita - I also like Martha and Jack.
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 10:27 pm | Link
I think that most DW fans probably do like Rose, but there is an extremely vocal minority contingent that absolutely despises her and won’t shut up about it.
I am usually more critical of female characters, especially if I feel they are a man’s invention. Rose, on the other hand, is unusually authentic.
I know! I’m the same way; I didn’t go into it expecting to like her. But she felt so much more authentic than the women you usually get on television (where usually it really shows that they’re written by men and/or written to please male audiences).
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paratti on March 1, 2008 9:50 pm | Link
Rose is fantastic.
Loves her, like I have so many other companions over the years. And I love even more that the show gives that.
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 10:28 pm | Link
Cool. :)
I think most fans probably do like her, there’s just a really loud minority that won’t shut up about how awful she is.
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a_white_rain on March 1, 2008 9:51 pm | Link
Yes.
I love so much that she choses her own life and that is wonderful for her but there are side affects to it. She hurts the people she loves sometimes. She’s just as flawed as the Doctor and that’s why she’s so fascinating. *memories it*
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 11:28 pm | Link
Thanks!
She’s just as flawed as the Doctor and that’s why she’s so fascinating.
Yes, exactly. Perfect characters are boring; there’s nothing to think about or explore when a character is flawless.
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chloris67 on March 1, 2008 10:15 pm | Link
Rose is great! She is smart, and capable, and she has the same desire to see it all that the Doctor has. I’m not at all surprised that she ran through the door as soon as she had the chance.
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 11:28 pm | Link
Yep, totally.
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violet_lane on March 1, 2008 10:22 pm | Link
Thanks for this! I’m totally putting it in my memories.
I like to think that’s why RTD made her the Bad Wolf. Before people got ahold of Little Red Riding Hood and turned it into a story to warn little girls from talking to strange men, the Bad Wolf used to represent the straying from the normal, safe path and venturing into the dangerous unknown. And I loved Rose for having the strength and courage to choose that path, even if it led to her demise.
I think that’s why Doomsday hurt so damn much. I almost wished she died instead of having to be trapped on the “safe” path for the rest of her life. =/
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 11:30 pm | Link
Thanks! I’m really glad you liked it.
As much as “Doomsday” hurt, I’m sure Rose is getting up to all kind of mischief and having cool adventures in her new universe. Yeah, it’ll never be the same as traveling with the Doctor, but I think she’s smart and competent and positive enough to create an interesting life for herself over there.
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violet_lane on March 2, 2008 12:06 am | Link
Oh, I’m with you there. Alas, I wish we could’ve had a scene of Rose living a fantastic life in Doomsday, instead of her saying, “This is the last story I’ll ever tell.” I’m sure she’s having tons of adventures; hopefully we’ll see some of that in the future.
Is it wrong that I want Rose’s Torchwood to meet Jack’s Torchwood and have an Office Olympics or something? xD
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trepkos on March 1, 2008 10:31 pm | Link
I can’t believe anyone thinks Rose should have stayed at home - that’s insane!
Would any of us stay at home instead of travelling in time and space?
I don’t think so!
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 11:33 pm | Link
Would any of us stay at home instead of travelling in time and space?
I know! It’s crazy!
There’s this whole school of thought that series two was supposed to be about Rose “growing up” and leaving the Doctor’s fantasy world behind in order to make her way in the real world, and that by choosing to stay with him she “failed.”
Which… yeah, is so insane I can’t even fathom it. Like traveling around the universe and having adventures and helping people is less “real” than hanging out at home with Mom.
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wickedgillie on March 1, 2008 10:32 pm | Link
Simply brilliant. I don’t think I could have said it better if I tried. Rose is such a *rich* character. Nuanced. Flawed. Magnificent. And pretty much perfect for the Doctor, who is same.
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 11:33 pm | Link
Thanks!
I agree–she’s wonderfully three-dimensional, just like the Doctor.
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rockgoddes on March 1, 2008 10:33 pm | Link
From the moment I saw her on my TV screen, I loved her. She was the reason I watched the show at all. I haven’t paid as much attention to it since she left because she was it for me.
For all the reasons you mentioned above, and so much more.
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 11:37 pm | Link
Awww. That’s awesome that you love her so much. (Although, dude, the Tenth Doctor is awesome too!)
I admit, I didn’t expect to like Rose, and it took a while. I figured she was going to be one of those typical Buffy-style characters where her journey is learning how great it is to be normal. I was so surprised and happy when she chose to continue traveling with the Doctor in the end, and because of that I’ve liked her more and more on rewatch. You can see that they really do build it up as a consistent part of her personality, that she really is very strong willed and loves making a difference and living an exciting life. And as much as she does love her family, she has the strength to choose her own future instead of letting them hold her back.
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frelling_tralk on March 1, 2008 11:10 pm | Link
Wonderful defense of Rose, thank you! :) It does often feel like Rose’s fans are categorized as younger and more fangirly, and it’s just ridiculous. Why shouldn’t Rose’s fans come from all ages and intelligence levels? She was the original POV character, and it’s disheartening to see people so willing to tear Rose down as soon as Billie Piper leaves the show. I don’t remember their being half as much bashing during seasons 1 and 2 anyway, but then in season 3 it was like god forbid the show respect Rose’s memory
It didn’t make sense for her to be happy at being stuck with Jackie and Mickey in Doomsday because, as you say, the whole point was that was the life that Rose had escaped from with the Doctor, and the life that she again chooses not to return to in the finale. It was great for Rose to have her Dad back (er in an AU sort of way that is), but Rose had really needed her Dad for her childhood years. She was 20/21 by the time of Doomsday, and it was frankly a little late for living with Mum and Dad to still be her ideal life. At least there was Rose working for Torchwood obviously, which held more promise than living with Pete/Jackie/Mickey would IMO, but still it was never going to be the same as actually getting to visit other worlds with the Doctor
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rusty_halo on March 1, 2008 11:48 pm | Link
Thanks!
Yeah, it seems to be a lot of cranky old school fans who think they know better than everyone else, getting all offended at how the newbies don’t understand how the show is “supposed” to be.
Whatever, man, I’m enjoying the show as it is, and as it is Rose was a very important part of the Doctor’s life. Obviously he’s going to miss her when she’s gone.
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katesutton on March 1, 2008 11:56 pm | Link
What you said! Rose was a fantastic character and I’m really tired of justifying the fact that I like her. Also tired of hearing that ’she never learned anything’ in her second season with the Doctor when there was NO LESSON TO BE LEARNED(excuse the capslockiness). She was happy and useful in her life with the Doctor; she wanted to be there and he wanted her to be there. Why on earth would she leave?
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:20 pm | Link
Also tired of hearing that ’she never learned anything’ in her second season with the Doctor when there was NO LESSON TO BE LEARNED(excuse the capslockiness). She was happy and useful in her life with the Doctor; she wanted to be there and he wanted her to be there. Why on earth would she leave?
Absolutely. It’s so weird to hear these crazy interpretations repeated throughout DW fandom as if they’re unambiguous facts.
If anything, Rose did learn in series two. She learned that life with the Doctor would have its challenges, but that she still wanted it and chose it with her eyes open. (”The Doctor is worth the monsters.”)
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thisficklemob on March 2, 2008 1:03 am | Link
Well said.
I started to like Rose the first time we saw her, when she was walking between two chums, both much skinnier, and I thought, “On an American tv show, she would never ever ever be cast as the female lead.”
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:22 pm | Link
Thanks!
Oh, man, I know. The first time I watched it, it took me a long time to get past the amazement that they’d actually cast a real-looking woman. With talent and everything! (And it just shows how skewed American TV is, because Billie Piper is gorgeous, she’s just not that emaciated sharp boned Barbie-clone type that is nearly all you see over here.)
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thisficklemob on March 2, 2008 10:12 pm | Link
Exactly. She is beautiful, and real, and talented. And that’s one of the things that bugs me about Hollywood’s beauty standards, the fact that sometimes they seem to have run out of that type who can act. The type is so narrow in every sense that not only does it not permit body fat, I sometimes can’t tell characters apart when I start watching a show. I don’t even find the current standard — that skinny, sharp-faced look — all that attractive.
Rose did occasionally frustrate me, but in that way where you like a character and don’t like everything they do. But she also impressed me with her ingenuity and incredible bravery. She’s not a perfect, but like you said, who wants to watch perfect?
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Nic on April 14, 2008 8:07 pm | Link
That’s really interesting… I never even THOUGHT about her size when watching the show. Rose? She’s your typical girl!
However, when I saw the “Doctor Who” exhibition, I was delighted to see that while I had NO CHANCE of fitting into Martha’s costumes (she’s a tiny woman!), Rose’s clothes looked like they would fit me.
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kousuke_blade on March 2, 2008 3:07 am | Link
This post really made my day. :D
I love Rose and all the anti-Rose vocalists have their opinion but I think you’ve argued her awesomeness brilliantly. I’ve read from people who don’t like Rose that Martha is more relatable but they only give one reason for this argument and that’s the unrequited love between Martha and the Doctor (which I, personally, thought was horrible for Martha’s character). I can understand this because I personally know what that feels like but it’s not as though the relationship between Rose and the Doctor is unrealistic. While it is fluffy and happy most of the time, they grew together and it wasn’t always easy. They’ve had their ups and downs plenty of times. Father’s Day is a perfect example because Rose made a mistake and the Doctor made sure she knew this. Yes, they made up at the end but he didn’t just pat her back and say that it was all right and that everyone makes mistakes.
I honestly think that Martha is a great character and a nice transition from what we had with Rose. Rose lives by her heart while Martha lives by her head. Yet Rose, as a character all by her lonesome, is a wonderfully written character who people can connect with. How many times have we heard ourselves or people we know wanting more out of life instead of the same old thing everyday? And she has flaws and oh, how I love flawed characters. Father’s Day again, anyone?
She’s a character who grows and learns and becomes independent, able to cope without the Doctor. The Satan Pit, for example, or Fear Her. I do believe nearly every episode incorporates Rose somehow working on her own (even if the Doctor is nearby) to show that she has learned and she can make it. Which is one of the reasons why I think she’s done spectacularly in Pete’s World (I’ve always loved the idea of her, Jake, and Mickey forming a team at Torchwood).
Yay Rose. :D
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:26 pm | Link
Thanks!
I do believe nearly every episode incorporates Rose somehow working on her own (even if the Doctor is nearby) to show that she has learned and she can make it.
That’s a good point. I’d noticed that, but hadn’t thought about it much. It does give you confidence that, even though the last image we see is of Rose heartbroken and crying, she’ll be successful at creating a life for herself in the alternate universe.
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honorh on March 2, 2008 3:12 am | Link
You’re so incredibly awesome. This is everything I want to say about Rose myself, but you’ve conveniently said it for me. Hope you don’t mind if I send people your way from my LJ.
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 4:59 am | Link
Thanks! And, yeah, no problem. :)
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amberfocus on March 2, 2008 5:01 am | Link
I love your brain. I really do. You have laid it out so perfectly here.
I adore Rose. And I’m hardly a fangirl. Thirty-eight year old mother here, highly educated, who has been watching Doctor Who since 1974. Honestly, she was the first companion I think was worth him falling in love with. And she was real. I would have been friends with her in school. My husband feels exactly the same way.
I think the family argument is silly. I’m the age (more or less) that Jackie is in Rose. I’d be encouraging my daughter to go off on her own, find adventure, find something more than just a static life. I’d want more for my kids. Jackie clings a bit too much to Rose, but in no way should Rose cling back. She’s leaving behind her mother, for pete’s sake, not a husband and children!
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:32 pm | Link
Thanks!
I’d be encouraging my daughter to go off on her own, find adventure, find something more than just a static life. I’d want more for my kids.
Exactly. I understand why Jackie is how she is–she lost Pete, and she sees a lot of him in Rose, so of course she worries. And she spent her whole life basically living for her child; she too needs to find meaning for herself instead of living for another person. Jackie’s interesting because I don’t really like her, but I think she’s a wonderful character.
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butterfly on March 2, 2008 5:31 am | Link
Beautiful post. Those are so many of the reasons that I adore Rose, too — she’s brave and daring and clever, and she makes the dangerous choice rather than the safe route of staying home.
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:38 pm | Link
Thanks! I think people focus on Rose’s surface characteristics–look, she’s blonde and dressed in pink and wearing lots of make-up, ew!–and ignore how brave and strong-willed she is, and how awesome it was that she chose an amazing, dangerous life over a small, safe one.
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moetushie on March 2, 2008 5:43 am | Link
I’m a Martha fan. And a Jack fan. And like a lot of people, I was introduced to Doctor Who with Rose, and she is special because of that. Your essay is sincere and so deeply felt. Rose does choose adventure and risk, as you say, and for that she is quite awesome.
Good job! :D
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:38 pm | Link
Thanks!
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drhaggis on March 2, 2008 5:44 am | Link
I love and miss Rose too. Kudos for making a clear and compelling argument for such a great character.
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:39 pm | Link
Thanks!
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salienne on March 2, 2008 5:51 am | Link
Thank you so so so much for this post. I just see Rose get so much flak, and it’s ridiculous. Honestly, with the amount of hatred leveled at her in S2, you’d think she went around killing babies or something. It’s as if having flaws in DW immediately makes you a terrible human being–it doesn’t. It makes you seem real, and it makes you a far more interesting character.
And the whole “she should have chosen/stayed with her family” thing is just bizarre to me. Like she says, “Everyone leaves home in the end.” That’s not always a happy process but… it’s called growing up.
*Mems*
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:43 pm | Link
Thanks!
It’s as if having flaws in DW immediately makes you a terrible human being–it doesn’t. It makes you seem real, and it makes you a far more interesting character.
Exactly. Everyone is flawed, and everyone has traits that manifest in both positive and negative ways. Exploring those character traits makes for an interesting story.
I’m boggled by the really prominent attitude in DW fandom that no one’s ever allowed to screw up and be imperfect; if it was a just a didactic moral lesson every week, the fandom wouldn’t exist, because there’d be nothing to talk about!
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iblis_kukl on March 2, 2008 6:28 am | Link
All that and lots more. Thank you for that; I hear way too much Rose-bashing these days just as you do.
eliazar
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 6:44 pm | Link
Thanks!
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anduril_narsil on March 2, 2008 6:32 am | Link
One thing I really love about Rose, she does not want to live the Doctor alone. She understands the timewar trauma, and she understands how lonely the Doctor’s life can be. And since my OTC is the Doctor, that made Rose one of cool thing in NewWho.
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 7:23 pm | Link
That’s a good point. She pretty much is the only person we see who really understands and empathizes with him… and still wants to stick around.
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midnightsjane on March 2, 2008 7:05 am | Link
Here via![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
honorh.
Well said! I love Rose, and Martha, and I’m sure I’ll love Donna, too. Each one brings something special and unique to the Doctor’s life and story, and I can’t figure out why we should have to choose one over the other.
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 7:27 pm | Link
Thanks!
Despite all the ship wars and companion wars, there does seem to be a large (possibly majority) contingent that really does like them all.
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shinyopals on March 2, 2008 1:52 pm | Link
Adding to memories!
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 7:27 pm | Link
Thanks!
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justhuman on March 2, 2008 2:28 pm | Link
Good post. I don’t hang out in Who-fandom, but I’ve heard the various rumblings. I adore Rose, Martha and Jack for everything that makes them individuals and great companions. I’ve seen a lot of companions over the years that simply followed the doctor, got in trouble, got rescued. Rose was a burst of life that reminds us all why the Doctor is in love with the universe and wants to see all of it.
I loved his flirting with Jack and I believe that in another time and place Nine would have happily shagged him. And dear Martha was in league with the best of the old school companions out there.
I can understand the fans that didn’t like so much romance injected in their Doctor, because old school didn’t dive into it. Although, old school set up the possibilities in his character on day one when we met the Doctor’s granddaughter. Time Lords are obviously not asexual and they love their families just like the rest of us.
I can even understand when they take that dislike of romance on Rose, but all that dislike has nothing to do with who Rose is and where she comes from. And on the flip side, the Martha-hate because she is not Rose, just makes me madder.
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 7:34 pm | Link
Thanks!
I would’ve loved to see Nine (or Ten) and Jack hook up. :)
Martha… I don’t like. Nothing to do with Rose, I just don’t think she’s written very deeply and I don’t think the actress is very talented. But I don’t hold it against anyone for liking her, and I agree that it’s silly to dislike her just because she’s not Rose. Someone had to replace Billie Piper! ;)
Not sure if you’re spoiled so I’ll just say that I am *really* looking forward to the new companion.
And, yeah, I can sort of see old school fans being upset at the show changing. But… television itself has changed massively, and I think mostly in a positive way. (It tells deeper stories because it has more respect for the audience’s ability to keep up with continuing arcs, in terms of both plot and character).
And romance is a part of life… an interesting aspect to explore… I don’t understand people being so incredibly upset at it being included (especially because it’s done very cautiously and mostly through subtext–it’s not like we’re watching Torchwood here!)
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fauxkaren on March 2, 2008 5:11 pm | Link
Something that I think a lot of people, myself included, tend to forget is that the scene at Bad Wolf Bay takes place at least three months after Doomsday for Rose. She’s had time to adjust and get used to the idea of living in Pete’s World with her family. And yet, she asks “Can’t you come and get me properly?” She still wants that life with the Doctor.
And I’d like to think that if she ever gets the chance to travel with the Doctor again, she’d still feel the same way. (SPOILERS!!! Stop reading here if you want to remain 100% unspoiled) So, I will be so disappointed and little upset if at the end of Series 4, Rose choses to go back to Pete’s World because I just don’t think that’s in character at all. So for me, she either has to stay with the Doctor, die, or be forced back into Pete’e World. It just won’t make sense otherwise.
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rusty_halo on March 2, 2008 7:37 pm | Link
Yeah, I have to admit, I’m nervous about what they’re going to do. Having her get torn away again is just a repeat, and having her die would just suck. But I’ll be very sad if she chooses to return to Pete’s world, because it’ll undercut the whole point of her story, about the Doctor being worth the monsters. I guess they could do some whole “I have grownup responsibilities here and this is my world now and I have to defend it” etc but I’m hoping they’ll come up with something better!
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keever on March 3, 2008 11:08 pm | Link
Hiya. Wandered over via a link from![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
beck_liz and had to chime in and say how much I love this post.
I think people must worry because they see a power imbalance in Rose giving up “her life” in favor of the Doctor’s. But that’s the thing, it’s not Rose’s life she’s giving up, it’s the life Jackie wants for her. When Rose sees the universe with the Doctor, that becomes her life. That’s how she wants to live.
Yes, this. This, this, especially this.
Well done.
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rusty_halo on March 6, 2008 5:06 am | Link
Thank you! (And thanks for the link, too.)
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chicken_cem on March 4, 2008 1:24 am | Link
I agree. I guess I don’t read a lot of fan wanks or whatever, because I haven’t seen any of these anti-Rose comments, and now I don’t want to. I love Rose, everyone I know loves her. Good for you for so clearly articulating why she is so amazing.
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rusty_halo on March 6, 2008 5:07 am | Link
Thank you! :)
Yeah, you’ll uh, probably want to stay away from some of the more intense threads at DoctorWhoForum.com!
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cloak on March 4, 2008 3:38 pm | Link
I used to watch the Fourth and Fifth Doctors when I was younger (yay for PBS), but I hadn’t given it much thought when it came out in ‘05. I didn’t watch it for a couple more years, and I almost literally devoured the first and second series, due in large part to Rose’s character. Sure, I was a big fan of Goofy Nine, less so of Ten (but boy, did that ever change as I watched Tennant’s interpretation of the character), but mostly, I watched because of Rose.
The thing I loved about this incarnation of the series that I don’t recall seeing when I was younger was that the writers seemed to have had the extraordinarily wise insight to put the story in the point of view of the companion. Rose skewed the perspective a little bit in a way that made it all the more wonderful for us to watch. Everything was so new, so amazing, and she did her best to hang on—sometimes, by barely a fingertip. It was all too much for her, but she never had much of a problem with that. I admired Rose for her tenacity and her constant positivity in the face of things that would have sent you or me home in a heartbeat.
As much as I love Martha, I got the feeling in Series Three that it wasn’t quite the same. The perspective had changed a bit and we were sort of seeing a shared view of the universe—shared by the Doctor and Martha. It took just a bit of the wonder out of things.
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rusty_halo on March 6, 2008 5:30 am | Link
Thanks!
I do think it was very cool that they began the show from Rose’s perspective. It made it much easier for the new audience to connect, since it was all as new to her as it was to us. And they did a great job of making Rose a brave and heroic character while still keeping her very flawed, relateable, and human.
I like series three a lot, but I agree that it was very different. Instead of the wonder of the universe, we saw a lot more of the darkness, and part of that is due to seeing things more from the Doctor’s perspective.
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skybound2 on March 6, 2008 5:35 am | Link
This is me, bowing down to you. As you have pretty much NAILED my thoughts on the matter. I adore how real Rose is, and I love that her makeups runs and she makes selfish decisions sometimes. The more I watch the show, and the more I reflect back on her, the more there is to love, and you’ve encapsulated all the reasons why in this post. And I’m saving this to my memories because it is just that brilliant :-)
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rusty_halo on March 6, 2008 7:38 am | Link
Thanks so much! I’m glad you liked it.
It was really impressive how real and three-dimensional Rose is, especially coming from years of the fake (looking and behaving) women on most American TV.
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svanderslice on March 6, 2008 7:20 am | Link
This is beautiful and perfect, and so well thought out. Thank you so much for sharing this.
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rusty_halo on March 6, 2008 7:31 am | Link
Thanks! I’m glad you liked it. :)
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the_magpye on March 8, 2008 9:48 pm | Link
All I can say is:
Hear hear!
Exactly what I feel about Rose as a companion, and thank you for posting it!
It does annoy me a little to see all the negative things being posted about Rose when without her, I probably wouldn’t be as hooked on DW as I am now xD
But each to their own, I suppose.
*friends you for writing such an awesome argument*
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rusty_halo on March 10, 2008 7:08 pm | Link
Thanks! :)
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arti_chan13 on March 14, 2008 2:05 am | Link
Okay, I’m one of those used-to-like-Rose fans. I loved her with Nine (I’m a bit of a Nine/Rose shipper) and with Ten. And I loved Doomsday a lot. I thought it was a good ending where Rose didn’t die, but she could also be happy. Many other companions didn’t have the Doctor blow up a sun for them just to say good-bye. I was also happy that she didn’t die either.
But, after Season Two, I was very mad that Billie had left and I thought I was going to hate Martha. I was so wrong. During Season Three, I was glad in the first few episodes that Rose was still important, but after that, it got old and repetitive. I got that Rose was all wonderful and the best companion ever to the Doctor. I don’t like being told who is super!companion. I want to figure that out by myself and the pedestal that she was put on really turned me off the character of Rose. Everything was about Rose, Rose, Rose. She’s not the best companion in the history of Doctor Who. I thought that poor Martha got the short end of the stick from the Doctor because of his angstyness and ‘Rose is awesome! You’ll never be good enough as her!’ I don’t like that kind of Doctor, he’s an asshole.
Besides, Rose just looked into the TARDIS and became the Bad Wolf, but the Doctor was always right next to her. Martha was an outlaw for an entire year without the Doctor being right next to her. To me, that’s the sign of a better companion.
I don’t want to see Season Four. Having Rose back would ruin the beauty of Doomsday and make it horribly cheesy. Doctor Who has always been about moving on and exploring. How can you be moving on when you’re stuck on a companion?
I also don’t want to see Martha and Donna (who are good companions) pushed aside for lovey dovey shippyness and ‘Rose, you are liek so awesome!111!’. And the fact that i’m supposed to ‘cry’ in the finale? I will probably rejoice because maybe Rose will be gone, hopefully on her own and we can finally move on and focus on the other companions.
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rusty_halo on March 14, 2008 2:58 am | Link
Thanks for sharing your opinion; polite disagreement is always welcome in my journal.
I think part of the reason I liked “Doomsday” so much is that I’m a former Buffy fan. That show had such an attitude of “normal is the be-all-and-end-all of existence” that I was unconsciously assuming Doctor Who would be the same (ie, “Having adventures and helping people is nice and all, but what I really want is to settle down in a house with a picket fence and go shoe-shopping at the mall.”) I was so surprised and happy when it didn’t, when Rose really stuck to her guns and made the risky choice (even if fate tore it away).
I was glad in the first few episodes that Rose was still important, but after that, it got old and repetitive.
I can sympathize (I found Martha’s inferiority complex repetitive, though I think she was incorrect to blame it on Rose), but my interpretation differs. I don’t think the show was telling us that Rose was super!companion; it was setting up the Doctor’s reaction to the Master’s return at the end of S3. The Doctor only mentioned Rose twice; after that his attention turned more to a general “being alone/feeling really bad about destroying Gallifrey” angst. I think losing Rose (and her family) tore open a wound that was bigger than one companion.
Martha thought it was about Rose, but that’s because her journey was about unrequited love. She didn’t even know that Rose was stuck in a parallel world until “Utopia.” So I don’t think the show was trying to tell you that Rose was uber!companion; I think it was just telling you that 1) the Doctor is really lonely, not only about Rose but about losing his surrogate family, his real family, and his own planet and 2) Martha is really caught up in unrequited love.
I think S3 concluded these themes pretty admirably with 1) the Doctor’s neediness culminating in him forgiving the Master and sobbing over his death and 2) Martha realizing that she’s been awesome all along and doesn’t need the Doctor’s love to feel good about herself. (If anything, I’d complain that these stories were too disconnected; the Doctor and Martha were both on very separate emotional journeys and didn’t connect enough.)
I thought that poor Martha got the short end of the stick from the Doctor because of his angstyness and ‘Rose is awesome! You’ll never be good enough as her!’ I don’t like that kind of Doctor, he’s an asshole.
I respect your right to feel that way, but I just see the story completely differently. I don’t think the Doctor was being an asshole to Martha; I think he just wasn’t in love with her (and wasn’t obligated to be), loved her very much as a friend, and was his typical socially clueless self with her as he is with everyone (including Rose; see “WWIII” or “Father’s Day” or “GitF”).
Rose just looked into the TARDIS and became the Bad Wolf, but the Doctor was always right next to her. Martha was an outlaw for an entire year without the Doctor being right next to her. To me, that’s the sign of a better companion.
They each have their strengths and weaknesses. IMO there’s no objective way you can say which is “better.” Personally, I prefer Rose because I think the actress is more skilled, the character has more dimension, and I “get” her (she follows her heart, she chooses adventure, she’s more “intuitive emotional intelligence” than “logical educated intelligence,” all of which I *personally* enjoy more in a character. And yes, part of that is that her heroism manifests in huge brave in-the-moment choices, whereas Martha’s heroism is more hard work over a long term.) BTW, it is worth noting that the Doctor wasn’t always “right there”; Rose opened the heart of the TARDIS on her own, and in S2 she frequently stepped up when the Doctor was elsewhere.
I also don’t want to see Martha and Donna (who are good companions) pushed aside for lovey dovey shippyness and ‘Rose, you are liek so awesome!111!’.
I see a lot of shippers hoping for this and a lot of anti-shippers fearing it, but I really don’t think it’s going to happen. Doctor Who isn’t first-and-foremost a romance, and RTD loves to bring the angst, so between those two factors I’m sure we’ll be getting something darker and more complex than lovey dovey shippiness.
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arti_chan13 on March 14, 2008 12:35 am | Link
Put into two parts because it is too long to be in one.
I think part of the reason I liked “Doomsday” so much is that I’m a former Buffy fan. That show had such an attitude of “normal is the be-all-and-end-all of existence” that I was unconsciously assuming Doctor Who would be the same
The only thing I’ve ever seen of Buffy was the musical episode and one of the finales (I was told to watch those to episodes when I was at someone’s house) and I never got what the big deal, but then again look at what episodes I watched. :)
I don’t think the show was telling us that Rose was super!companion; it was setting up the Doctor’s reaction to the Master’s return at the end of S3. The Doctor only mentioned Rose twice; after that his attention turned more to a general “being alone/feeling really bad about destroying Gallifrey” angst.
She was talked about a lot in ‘Utopia’, she even had a flashback. I thought it was a bit odd that Jack had stalked her, or at least it seemed like he did. I think also that the Doctor is always alone and always will be and I’ve only seen two serials of Old!Who, so I’m not exactly sure. Destorying Gallifrey I can sort of understand, but why didn’t that happen more with Rose? The wounds were fresher then, and it would have made more sense. I’m also a bit tired of those Daleks, they can never die and I feel the the whole powerfulness about how he destroyed Gaillfrey to save the world from them is now worthless.
1) the Doctor’s neediness culminating in him forgiving the Master and sobbing over his death and 2) Martha realizing that she’s been awesome all along and doesn’t need the Doctor’s love to feel good about herself.
I always wished that the Master hadn’t died (because John Simm was an awesome Master) and that they would go out and argue about what kind of curtains to get and be a cracky!couple, because every fandom needs a good cracky couple. (I read that in a fic, but I don’t remember which one)
I personally loved Martha’s exit. She left on her own and she had gotten over the Doctor. For me, that was the best moment of the season.
I don’t think the Doctor was being an asshole to Martha; I think he just wasn’t in love with her (and wasn’t obligated to be), loved her very much as a friend, and was his typical socially clueless self with her as he is with everyone (including Rose; see “WWIII” or “Father’s Day” or “GitF”).
What about his comment in The Shakespeare Code about Rose would know what to do? We (or at least I was) were seeing it more from Martha’s view than the Doctor’s, so I see how the Doctor could be more of an asshole to some than others. But for me, his whole adittude was a bit off with her.
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rusty_halo on March 14, 2008 3:22 am | Link
Buffy was a pretty good show for the first five seasons; it’s interesting to see how much of an influence it was on RTD (I see some in DW and a lot more in Torchwood). It’s extremely arc-driven, though, so unfortunately it requires a big time investment to get the full effect; you miss a lot by watching an episode out of context.
It harps on the “normal” theme for seven seasons, though, which was ultimately pretty disappointing for me.
Anyway… I think the reason the Doctor and Jack discuss Rose is because she’s the character they have in common. It’s only natural that her fate would come up; Jack was bonded with Rose at least as much as with the Doctor. Plus, in terms of Jack’s arc, that moment is the big reveal following 160 years of “what in god’s name happened to me and why can’t I die?” And Bad Wolf Rose is what happened. So they flashed back to that moment to bring home the power of Jack finally discovering what happened to him. IMO that scene was all about Jack coming to terms with his situation, not really about Rose at all.
Destorying Gallifrey I can sort of understand, but why didn’t that happen more with Rose?
I think it happened all through S1, actually. The Doctor’s S1 arc was to begin to recover from his Time War angst and reconnect emotionally with others. His issues come up in the first episode when he freaks out with guilt while talking to the Nestene consciousness, and then recurs throughout the season (the first place he takes Rose is the destruction of earth [pretty obviously projecting there], Jabe commiserates with him over losing his people, he lets the Gelth through the rift out of Time War guilt, he completely loses it over the Dalek, etc.)
(Oh, and I totally agree that they’ve lessened the effect of the Daleks. They were quite effective the first time but they’ve definitely gotten silly by now. *crosses fingers for a Dalek-free S4*)
So, yeah, basically I think when we first met him he was really messed up over Gallifrey, and the story of S1 was his reconnection with humanity. Which, honestly, I think worked so well in particular because Rose has a very intuitive, empathetic personality; she just had a natural way of getting around his barriers and connecting with him, and also of connecting with others and reminding the Doctor to think about individuals, not just the big picture.
He was plenty cautious about it to begin; look at the hesitant way he asks her along, or how vehemently he opposes spending time with her family. (And yet he ends up having Christmas with them the next year; it’s a nice arc, his growing connection despite himself.)
So I think when he lost Rose those old wounds got torn open, and he put his barriers back up again. Which is a large part of why he didn’t connect with Martha–the Rose wounds were really fresh and he did that thing where he withdraws into his shell and doesn’t let anyone else in for a while. (I think you see the same thing in VotD when he starts to connect with Astrid, loses her, puts up his walls, and pushes Mr. Copper away).
I always wished that the Master hadn’t died (because John Simm was an awesome Master)
Oh, totally. I adore the Master. He’s my favorite character aside from the Doctor, and I totally ship Doctor/Master. (I think the crack!fic might be by![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
shaggydogstail, btw. She definitely wrote some funny ones.)
I personally loved Martha’s exit. She left on her own and she had gotten over the Doctor.
I agree that it was a good exit for her as a character. It’s rare (and nifty) to see an unrequited love story ending with the person realizing that they are awesome on their own and don’t need anyone else to validate them. (I used to always wish Spike on Buffy would get that kind of ending.)
[continued below]
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arti_chan13 on March 14, 2008 10:00 pm | Link
I think the reason the Doctor and Jack discuss Rose is because she’s the character they have in common. It’s only natural that her fate would come up; Jack was bonded with Rose at least as much as with the Doctor. Plus, in terms of Jack’s arc, that moment is the big reveal following 160 years of “what in god’s name happened to me and why can’t I die?” And Bad Wolf Rose is what happened. So they flashed back to that moment to bring home the power of Jack finally discovering what happened to him. IMO that scene was all about Jack coming to terms with his situation, not really about Rose at all.
I can see your point about how Jack wants to find out why he can’t die but I don’t think a flashback and (if I remember correctly, it’s been awhile since I’ve seen it) and Martha overhearing them just seemed like it was all about Rose. And from Marthat’s point of view, it probably was.
(Oh, and I totally agree that they’ve lessened the effect of the Daleks. They were quite effective the first time but they’ve definitely gotten silly by now. *crosses fingers for a Dalek-free S4*)
I think that they should bring different aliens back or keep creating new ones. There has to be some good ideas in the archive.
So, yeah, basically I think when we first met him he was really messed up over Gallifrey, and the story of S1 was his reconnection with humanity. Which, honestly, I think worked so well in particular because Rose has a very intuitive, empathetic personality; she just had a natural way of getting around his barriers and connecting with him, and also of connecting with others and reminding the Doctor to think about individuals, not just the big picture.
That is why I’m only a Nine/Rose shipper in terms of Rose ships. Rose was created for Nine, just like Martha was for Ten. Rose and Ten are cute together, but I think that Nine and Rose have a much more real relationship. In Season Two, all it is if fluff and there is no angst about Gallifrey. I think Season Two was too one sided.
So I think when he lost Rose those old wounds got torn open, and he put his barriers back up again. Which is a large part of why he didn’t connect with Martha–the Rose wounds were really fresh and he did that thing where he withdraws into his shell and doesn’t let anyone else in for a while. (I think you see the same thing in VotD when he starts to connect with Astrid, loses her, puts up his walls, and pushes Mr. Copper away).
Astrid bugged me. A lot. The Doctor falls in love with her quickly, very quickly. Moreso than he did with Rose. And I spent my time thinking, ‘Wait, you spent all last season being angsty and suddenly it’s all better because of a blonde girl? What about Martha and Donna?’ (One of the reasons I adore Donna is because she doesn’t like the Doctor like that and it’s refreshing. Also because she’s a fellow redhead) I know that Astrid gave up her life for the Doctor and to save the planet, but I just feel she wasn’t up to par as Martha and Rose. I’d take Rose over Astrid (aka TARDIS) any day.
Oh, totally. I adore the Master. He’s my favorite character aside from the Doctor, and I totally ship Doctor/Master. (I think the crack!fic might be by, btw. She definitely wrote some funny ones.)
I’ll check her out! I love Doctor/Master. At least there are still fics and youtube videos.
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arti_chan13 on March 14, 2008 12:38 am | Link
And here’s part dos. :)
Personally, I prefer Rose because I think the actress is more skilled, the character has more dimension, and I “get” her (she follows her heart, she chooses adventure, she’s more “intuitive emotional intelligence” than “logical educated intelligence,” all of which I *personally* enjoy more in a character. And yes, part of that is that her heroism manifests in huge brave in-the-moment choices, whereas Martha’s heroism is more hard work over a long term.) BTW, it is worth noting that the Doctor wasn’t always “right there”; Rose opened the heart of the TARDIS on her own, and in S2 she frequently stepped up when the Doctor was elsewhere.
I think it’s all up to personal preference. I like Martha more because she does think things through a bit and she’s a bit more sarcastic than Rose (which I love). I think it’s just an agree to disagree situation. :) But with their heroism, I think Martha does more things on her own than Rose does, such as being a worker in the early 1900s when the Doctor was John Smith. Of course, Rose does have her moments as well, but for me, Martha is more of a heroine. But, that’s all personal preference as well.
I see a lot of shippers hoping for this and a lot of anti-shippers fearing it, but I really don’t think it’s going to happen. Doctor Who isn’t first-and-foremost a romance, and RTD loves to bring the angst, so between those two factors I’m sure we’ll be getting something darker and more complex than lovey dovey shippiness.
The worst thing for me to happen in the finale is Rose and the Doctor getting married, Rose becoming pregnant and then dying. It would completely undermine my faith in the series. What I would like to happen is Martha, Rose, and Donna getting along and becoming good friends, with Rose leaving on her own and being happy.
By the way, you are one of the most sane and intelligent Rose fans I’ve ever met. Lately all I’ve been seeing are the netspeaking ones.
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rusty_halo on March 14, 2008 3:22 am | Link
[continued from above]
What about his comment in The Shakespeare Code about Rose would know what to do?
I would say that falls under the Doctor’s general clueless/insensitive behavior, no different from “I refuse to have tea with your mother; come with me now or I’ll leave you behind” and “your inability to die creeps me out so I’ll leave you on a space station full of dead people.” I don’t think he does any of it out of intentional cruelty; I just think he’s really socially clueless. He runs away from emotional connection and misses the obvious human emotions that are right in front of his face. (Look at how he didn’t even consider the possibility of John Smith falling in love.)
So, yeah. I think that moment (which was very early on; his second episode with Martha and his second and last mention of Rose to her) was the Doctor missing Rose and missing that Martha was right in front of him. But I don’t think it means he should have fallen in love with her or that he was intentionally cruel to her; I think it means he was caught up in his own pain and didn’t think about what she might be feeling. Which is normal Doctorish behavior.
I think we also saw, as the series progressed, that he really began to respect and rely upon Martha. (He keeps extending the “one more trip,” trusts her to save him from the sun, gives her a TARDIS key and magic phone, trusts her to protect him in HN/FoB, and finally trusts her to save the world from the Master.) And he actually does hug and thank her a lot; he cares for her quite a bit but he just doesn’t reciprocate her crush. (I think for a long time he convinces himself that she doesn’t have one, but at some point he figures it out, then–as with every emotional thing he doesn’t know how to deal with–he goes into denial and ignores it in hopes that it’ll go away. He wants to keep her as a friend and is sad when she leaves.)
I think it’s just an agree to disagree situation. :)
Hee! Agreed. If only all fan disagreements could be solved so easily.
The worst thing for me to happen in the finale is Rose and the Doctor getting married, Rose becoming pregnant and then dying.
I… honestly, I bet you a million dollars that this will not happen. I know the shippers love the idea because that’s the kind of thing shippers squee about and talk themselves into believing might actually happen, but on Doctor Who? Doctor Who?
It’s possible that I’m wrong, but I really would bet good money that it’ll never happen. At best the shippers will get an angsty ending with the Doctor and Rose having suffered a great loss but together (until something happens in the specials and tears them apart again). More likely they’ll get an angsty separation–your hope of Rose leaving on her own is quite likely. And at worst they’ll get Rose dead or the Doctor wiped from her memory or something dark like that. But marriage and babies? Nah.
By the way, you are one of the most sane and intelligent Rose fans I’ve ever met. Lately all I’ve been seeing are the netspeaking ones.
Thank you! You’re certainly one of the nicer Martha fans I’ve met as well. :)
I have met quite a few cool Rose fans, but I do tend to avoid the OTP shipper comms since I like Rose and enjoy Doctor/Rose in canon, but don’t actually ship them on my own. (I’m all about slash and Doctor/Master… *thinks happy thoughts about John Simm*)
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arti_chan13 on March 14, 2008 10:12 pm | Link
So, yeah. I think that moment (which was very early on; his second episode with Martha and his second and last mention of Rose to her) was the Doctor missing Rose and missing that Martha was right in front of him. But I don’t think it means he should have fallen in love with her or that he was intentionally cruel to her; I think it means he was caught up in his own pain and didn’t think about what she might be feeling. Which is normal Doctorish behavior.
He just seemed a bit more off to me, but that could just be entirely me and how I took in the show.
I… honestly, I bet you a million dollars that this will not happen. I know the shippers love the idea because that’s the kind of thing shippers squee about and talk themselves into believing might actually happen, but on Doctor Who? Doctor Who?
Yeah, since it still is a children’s show. ‘Mommy, how did Rose have a baby?’ would be too awkward to air. And I’m sure parents would be upset about it as well.
I have met quite a few cool Rose fans, but I do tend to avoid the OTP shipper comms since I like Rose and enjoy Doctor/Rose in canon, but don’t actually ship them on my own. (I’m all about slash and Doctor/Master… *thinks happy thoughts about John Simm*)
Sometimes is so ridiculous I cringe. I wish all Doctor Who fans could be civil and stuff. But that’s never going to happen. Can you point me in the direction of cool Rose fans? It’s been awhile since I’ve seen them. But then I look at the Pirates fandom and read some of those Jack/Elizabeth die hards (I’m a Will/Elizabether) and…I’m thankful for Doctor Who fandom.
Also, I was wondering (due to recent events) if Insane Journal is worth my time to create a duplicate account there?
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rusty_halo on March 14, 2008 10:21 pm | Link
Yeah, since it still is a children’s show. ‘Mommy, how did Rose have a baby?’ would be too awkward to air. And I’m sure parents would be upset about it as well.
Hmmm, maybe. I don’t know, they’ve gotten away with a lot of adult stuff, though. (Like the single mother in “The Empty Child”/”The Doctor Dances”). I was thinking more because it’s an iconic sci-fi/fantasy genre show, which generally do not pull soap-opera plots such as marriage and babies.
I think OTP type shipping tends to inspire insanity wherever you go. (*remembers it from Buffy fandom too*) As for the sane ones, I’ve been reading![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/community.gif)
dwrewatch and although they are Doctor/Rose shippers, the discussion has been mostly sane, upbeat, and interesting. I’ve also read interesting and sane pro-Rose meta from ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
violet_lane, ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
honorh, ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
psubrat, ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
butterfly, ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
goldy_dollar, ![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
chloris67, among others.
I personally am very fond of InsaneJournal. They don’t censor and the guy who runs it is very straightforward and honest. They fix any bugs that come up and update their code regularly. They also offer far more icons and their paid options are much cheaper. The community over there is smaller but the people who have moved seem tighter-knit. I’d recommend it; every time LJ does something stupid I get a little bit closer to switching to InsaneJournal for good.
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Nic on April 14, 2008 8:27 pm | Link
Just jumping in here (late!)
It’s interesting, I keep hearing about the appalling Doctor/Rose shippers but the communties I’m part of have never degenerated into teenie!speak or bashing. So is it just limited to public forums with young fans? (i.e. teenage girls who haven’t yet lived and believe that “love is more important than everything else”?)
I love Doctor/Rose but I also think Martha was pretty awesome as a Companion. And I’m terrified about S4 because I can’t see any type of ending that will make me happy (I DO want to see a Doctor/Rose happily-ever-after scenario) that actually fits in with the show. I’m keeping my expectations as low as possible for that one but I think there’s going to be a lot of very upset fans.
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haro on April 10, 2008 12:04 pm | Link
This is a fantastic essay. Thanks. ♥
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rusty_halo on April 10, 2008 2:49 pm | Link
Thank you! :)
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sideways on April 14, 2008 6:00 pm | Link
very well said. :)
i love rose just as much as you do, and for all the same reasons pretty much. i was devastated to see her go, *cue doomsday tears* but it wouldn’t have worked out any other way. i’m really excited about… you know… this season, and looking forward (if not slightly nervous) as to how RTD and others plan on working everything out.
the new companion this season is absolute brilliance though, isn’t she? <3
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rusty-halo on April 14, 2008 7:04 pm | Link
Thank you! I can’t wait to see what happens this season…
Donna is wonderful. Just absolutely wonderful. Not a replacement Rose, but an amazing character in her own right and for what she brings out in the Doctor. :)
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threerings on April 14, 2008 7:19 pm | Link
What a fantastic essay! You have summed up so much of what I think about Rose! Thank you!
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rusty-halo on April 14, 2008 7:49 pm | Link
Thanks! Glad you liked it. :)
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surrexi on April 14, 2008 11:50 pm | Link
Oh, I love you. This is *brilliant*. I’ve never been able to understand the vehemence with which many Classic Who fans hate Rose, I’ve just never been able to articulate all the reasons *why* as well as you have here. An excellent essay!
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rusty-halo on April 15, 2008 11:41 am | Link
Thanks! :)
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Emma on April 16, 2008 1:23 pm | Link
Dammit, this post kicks ass. Fantastic, awesome… made my day!
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rusty-halo on April 16, 2008 1:44 pm | Link
Thank you! There is so much depressing Rose hate out there; I just had to counter it. :)
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Ace on February 7, 2010 12:59 am | Link
*grins*
You have everything i love about Rose here.
The thing about series one and series two, is that series one she was basically a kid still, learning how the world worked. Definitely a teenager. Series two, she’s made the transition to young woman, and is dealing with what that means and how that changes her situation, and how she ought to behave, and who she wants to be. This is what she’s chosen, so she has to recconcile it with everything else. Things don’t just come to you breezily; you have to work at them, and everythign has consequences.
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