20 unpopular opinions
Well, these are supposed to be unpopular opinions, right? So I’m going all out and I’m not going to sugarcoat and qualify. Something here is liable to offend, well, probably everyone, so don’t get upset if you, y’know, get upset.
10 unpopular opinions about fan behavior
1. I like this meme. (Does that count as an unpopular opinion? I’ve seen a bunch of people upset by it.)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having strong opinions. I have strong opinions and I like to express them. Doesn’t mean that I don’t take responsibility for them, but it’s also really tiresome to have to argue them every time someone new comes across your journal and gets offended that you don’t think Spike’s a mean nasty rapist who only wanted to get into Buffy’s pants. I see no problem with expressing those opinions (which aren’t necessarily entirely negative, and might actually be quite positive, like the “I like Riley”/”I like season four” responses that I keep seeing) in response to this meme. If you don’t like them, you can always ignore them. And if you’re going to lose respect for me because I’ve had expressed an opinion you find distasteful, well, fine. I’d rather you do it now (and please take me off your reading list–aka the unfortuntately named “friends list”–if you don’t like to read what I say; it’s better for all involved and I won’t get offended). Though of course it would be nice if people could hold differing opinions and still get along, which I try to do. (And I also try to make a point of criticizing elements of the show, not the individuals who support those elements of the show.)
It’s quite possible to hold strong opinions and yet not be automatically “rabid” or a “fanatic.” Personally, I prefer to hold strong opinions, which are in no way arbitrary. I spend a really long time thinking about issues, looking at all the sides, reading and hearing thoughts from people with as many perspectives as I can find. I almost never have an opinion on something right away, which is why when I’m asked my opinion on something immediately after I experience it, I usually react like a deer caught in headlights. I need to absorb it and spend a long time thinking and creating hypothetical situations and metaphors and such so that I can get as complete a picture as possible before I decide what I believe.
That said, once I form an opinion, I tend to stick to it very strongly. Because I’ve put so much thought and consideration into them, I tend to be pretty confident and comfortable with my opinions. I may change them later, but only if I’m presented with new information or an extremely convincing new perspective.
I don’t think that this is wrong or weird or fanatical. If it weren’t for people with strong opinions, we wouldn’t have had things like the civil rights movement or women’s liberation. Everyone would’ve just been sitting around going, “well, gee, I’m not sure what I think, and I don’t want to cause any trouble, so I’ll just sit this one out.” How dull.
So on to actual fannish opinions.
2. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with watching the show for just one character (and not caring the slightest bit about the others) if it happens that that one character is the only one that you find interesting/engaging.
3. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with watching the show after it’s taken a direction that you dislike. Maybe you still enjoy the community, or you enjoy the fic, or you still like some aspects, or you hope it’ll get better, or you want to keep in touch and have something in common with friends, or you find it intellectually stimulating to pick apart aspects of the show that you dislike and figure out why. Maybe it’s just fun to rant. Whatever. It doesn’t matter why; these people don’t have to justify why they watch the show. If you don’t like reading their opinions, fine; don’t read them! Telling those people, “well why don’t you just stop watching?” is rude and condescending. They have just as much right to watch and express their opinions as anyone else.
4. It’s fucking stupid to claim that you’re superior to someone else because you hold a different fannish opinion. It’s fiction, and it’s all a matter of interpretation. Different people see it different ways and find appeal in different things. I’ve lost respect for a whole lot of people that I used to admire because they have these superiority complexes. It’s stupid to go around lecturing and insulting fans who like/dislike some aspect of the show more than you think they should.
Believe it or not, I can interpret fiction differently than you do and still be a decent human being who is just as intelligent as you are. And I sure as hell don’t need to be lectured by you or taught the “correct” way to interpret or enjoy fictional characters. I respect other peoples’ rights to disagree; I criticize the characters and their actions, not the fans who support those characters and actions.
The fact is, mainstream culture would regard us *all* as freaks, so picking out other fan factions and mocking them/trying to make them seem crazier than you is just self-defeating and pointless (and elitist and mean). It’s the height of egocentrism to think that you’re better than other fans and can go around lecturing them about what opinions they hold and how they should express them.
5. People have the right to write badfic. Mock them in private if you must, but otherwise leave them alone. No one’s tying you down and forcing you to read their fic. Writing them and telling that they’re “doing it wrong” is really nasty. Just be glad that they’re writing. And besides, for all you know they could improve and grow into a great writer someday. (Especially if they’re 12 years old, which I think a lot of badfic writers probably are.)
6. However–when a writer posts something in public, she is opening it up to public criticism. That’s just the way it is. There’s nothing wrong with people picking it apart on a forum or discussion list (although their criticism sometimes is rude or wrong, they still have the right to criticise publicly). If you want positive feedback, you’re going to have to deal with the critical feedback too. Otherwise, post your work privately to people you know will only tell you what you want to hear.
7. Slash is not a “trend” anymore than fanfiction itself (or fandom itself) is a trend. The internet has made fandom/fanfiction/slash all more widely accessible and so more people are trying all of them. It’s stupid and narrow-minded to single out slash and use this fact, which applies to all aspects of fandom, as a criticism of one element that you don’t like.
8. Fanfiction is just as artistically and emotionally valid as canon. And often a lot better written, more consistent, more thoughtful, and more interesting. Fic is not in any way “less” or “invalid” just because it’s written out of interest and passion instead of for money. And ultimately good fic means a whole lot more to me than most of what I see on the show.
9. Saying you think slash shouldn’t be written, or that slash writers are delusional, or that slash writers are bashing the characters and insulting the actors, or you worry that slash is “taking over fandom,” or you make sure that everyone who looks at your journal knows that you’re opposed to slash and you think your favorite characters are absolutely 100% heterosexual — that’s all based on a heterocentric/homophobic attitude. Even if you’re totally pro-equal rights in every other aspect of your life, it’s still homophobic, based on heterocentric norms that look down on other sexualities, norms that underlie many aspects of this society and are invisible to a lot of people.
And unless the sole reason you read fanfic is for sexual titilation, “it just doesn’t turn me on” is not an excuse. Because there’s so much good in so many slash stories; characters, language, description, metaphor, plot, theme, etc. If you read for any of those things, then why does it matter so damn much that the stories may also contain gay sex?
Which is not to say that I have a problem with people who are just not interested. That’s fine. But if you have to go out of your way to make a big deal about how opposed you are to slash, that’s a problem.
10. The good aspects of LiveJournal are equalled (if not overwhelmed) by its bad qualities. Yes, it’s nice that you can sometimes form friendly relationships with people. It’s not at all nice that this place encourages people to be rude, judgemental, condescending, cliquey … etc, etc, etc. This place brings out the worst in a whole lot of people. I’m really ambivalent being here. I’m unsure whether the good aspects make it worthwhile to put up with the bad.
10 unpopular opinions about the actual show(s)
1. I haven’t been able to stand Xander since the lie in Becoming 2. He did it because he’s a bigoted, condescending little creep. He *always* judged Angel harshly because he wanted to get rid of the competition, and he never trusted Buffy to make her own decisions. Over the seasons he slowly turned into his father–the way he treated Anya, the way he treated Spike, even the condescending way he treated Buffy. He was an absolutely repulsive character. And it’s most clear in B2–I can’t believe he had the gall to call himself Buffy’s friend after that! And I completely understand Buffy’s desire to leave after that episode; if I were her, I wouldn’t have bothered coming back.
That said, I can read and enjoy Xander in fanfic. But the fanfic Xander that I can like is completely removed from the asshole that I saw on TV.
2. I used to like Buffy. (See above re: my identification with her in B2). I sympathized with her right up until she hit Spike in “Smashed.” At that point, Spike had been the only one to be there for Buffy and to actually try to understand her after her resurrection (unlike the Scoobies, who were more focused on assuaging their own guilt than in actually understanding Buffy). Spike had protected her sister and friends all summer, and he’d nearly died–several times!–trying to protect Dawn.
Then Buffy kissed him, twice, out of nowhere, after he’d told her to leave him alone. He had every right to demand to know what was going on. And instead of explaining it to him (“because of Giles” made no sense; she’d kissed him the first time before she knew Giles was leaving), she hit him and called him an “evil, disgusting thing.” This was the first step of Buffy’s utterly repulsive S6 behavior.
Buffy was the abuser in that relationship, and Spike was the victim. Yeah, Spike made some mistakes, but nothing even close to the violent, calculated, months-long physical and emotional abuse that Buffy inflicted on him. She mocked him to her friends, treated him like a dirty secret, used him for sex and emotional reassurance, then told him he was dirt and could never be better, despite the fact that he was trying to become a better person. She beat him to get out her frustrations and to make herself look good in front of Riley, and she never apologized or even acknowledged that she’d made a mistake. She felt guilty because she had tainted her precious self by sleeping with a dirty thing, not because she was using, manipulating, and destroying a person who loved her and who had the potential to become a better man. She took, took, took, and never gave anything back, and then tried to act like she was superior in condescending to apologize to him before throwing him away like he was garbage. Buffy was the monster in that relationship. I’ll never stop despising her for what she did to Spike.
And I’m fucking sick of seeing her abuse justified because she’s just a confused little girly and Spike’s a nasty rotten man. Reverse the genders and then you can see how utterly wrong her behavior really was.
3. Sort of a corrolary to #2. Buffy started out as a girl with some bad qualities (tendencies toward selfishness and shallowness) but also real potential to become a good, kind, heroic person. But throughout the seasons she became increasingly selfish and cruel. (And yeah, she did suffer; that’s a reason, not an excuse. She could have chosen not to let herself become such a monster.) Ultimately, she had chosen to abandon virtually every kind quality she once possessed. She was a heartless, cruel, manipulative abuser who thought only of herself and only valued other people when they could be useful to her. Xander, Dawn, Willow — they were all useful in validating her, helping her get what she wanted, and reflecting aspects of herself. Later in the series, she ceased to value any aspect of them as individuals, and only saw them in relation to her. She was pathologically self-obsessed and narcisstic. She was not a hero.
4. Buffy and Angel didn’t love each other. They loved idealized fantasy images of each other. Buffy loved the big swooping romantic hero; Angel loved the ideal of innocence that he’d never reclaim. They never actually knew each other as individuals. And frankly, you can’t love someone if you don’t know them. (Sorry. You just can’t. You can be really attracted to them, but actual love requires that you know the person a hell of a lot better than blinded-by-illusions Buffy and Angel did.)
They’re both dominant alpha personalities; if they were ever actually together for an extended period of time, the glow would wear off, they’d see each other’s real personalities, and they’d be at each other’s throats pretty damn quickly.
5. Angel was a coward for leaving Buffy. Rather than, say, trying to seek out and win his soul, or trying to find a way around the curse, or trying to be with Buffy without letting his hormones get in the way, or staying to be there for her as a friend, he chose to completely abandon her. His choice to make decisions for her without consulting her (repeatedly!) is the ultimate in sexism, and I cannot believe Joss would allow this to be portrayed heroically on a so-called feminist show.
And then he had the gall not to admit that he was too weak to be with her, but instead to blame it on her! To claim that he had to be the strong one (*snort*) so that she could have a “normal life.” Hello, she’s the slayer! “Normal life” not exactly in the cards.
And WTF is up with the whole stupid normal thing anyway? What’s so great about normal? ME’s idealization of the normal is ultimately the thing that pisses me off the most about their shows. Rather than having Buffy accept and use her great gift, they showed her constantly pining for mediocrity and conformity and a socially acceptable life. It was pathetic. Sure, every little girl wants to be “normal” at some point. Personally, I got over it when I was nine. I was expecting a bit more from a supposed “feminist hero.” Believe it or not, you can actually have a valid and fulfilling life without conforming to the social ideal of 2.5 kids and a normal house in the suburbs and a GI Joe boyfriend. It’s tragic that Buffy never realized that.
And it really pisses me off that the choice to live a non-traditional life is always presented as an inferior compromise to that stupid suburban ideal. (“Oh no! My boyfriend can’t give me grandchildren! We can never be together long-term!” How does that make infertile couples feel, I wonder? Or those who choose not to have children? Did Buffy ever give any thought to whether she would want to have children, instead of just following the dominant social norm? Or “Oh no, my boyfriend can’t frolick in the sunlight and run with me on the beach?” How does that make disabled people feel? Or hell, people who don’t like the sun? You can’t possibly have a fulfilling life with a mildly limiting sun allergy? Please! As if superpowers don’t make up for it anyway.)
6. I liked the Trio. I thought they were some of the best villains of the series. Their descent in Dead Things was brilliant. I loved how they started as silly comic relief and became increasingly dark. It was realistic. It blurred the black and white moral boundaries of the show, showed that humans are much more complex than we think, that even seemingly good-if-misguided kids have very dark sides. I liked it less when it descended into a lesson about misogyny (“look at Buffy smash Warren’s balls!”), but when it was about the darkness in us all it was great. And all their nerd jokes were hilarious. “Timothy Dalton should win an Oscar and beat Sean Connery over the head with it!” Hehehe.
7. Spike could have and should have been redeemed without a soul. Giving Spike a soul was the stupidest thing ME ever did. It ruined the character and completely destroyed the complexity of his journey and his personality. It enforced a limited, essentialist, racist attitude, it was an attempt to whitewash all the complexity and moral questions raised by season six, and it tried to invalidate all the good acts and changes made by the character that I loved (unsouled Spike). And when I say he should’ve been redeemed, I don’t mean turned into a great big fluffy bunny; I mean he could’ve fought by the good guys and chosen to make the right choices, even if that wasn’t his natural instinct, because he learned. I saw that Spike was capable of learning and growing and becoming a better person, and no stupid artificially constructed ME anvils are going to change my mind. Oh, and Xander’s “but I never forgot what he was” is the most bigoted piece of nonsense I’ve ever heard. I can’t believe ME let it come out of the mouth of a so-called hero.
8. Souled Spike doesn’t need to be redeemed. He hasn’t done anything wrong.
It’s like saying Buffy needs to be redeemed for “Normal Again” or Joyce needs to be redeemed for “Gingerbread.” They were under mystical influence that was beyond their control and that took away their internal restraints and resulted in them doing things that they wouldn’t have normally done. Once returned to normal, it’s ridiculous to hold them culpable for those things that they are able perfectly able to restrain themselves from doing.
Souled Angel, in contrast, has plenty that he needs to be redeemed for. Like killing criminals to try to get back with Darla, letting people die in that hotel, letting the clerk die, locking the lawyers in to die, fucking Darla in an attempt to lose his soul, trying to kill Wesley, and erasing his friends’ memories.
9. Human William was a pathetic, boring, annoying little wuss. I’m glad we saw him, because he provides great insight into Spike’s character (and Spike IS him, just a William who has lost his soul and been through years of change and experience), but on his own he SUCKS. I can’t stand to read fic that glorifies him; there’s nothing wonderful or interesting there; just a dull naive little dork with a lot of unrealized potential.
10. Spike should keep the duster. It’s a representation of his strength, not his evil. Plus, it’s hot. Also, he should keep the bleached hair. And he really, really, really needs the eyeliner and nailpolish back. Please? Also, Spike becoming human is the worst idea ever, and every time someone says it I get physically nauseated. Just don’t. (For why, see above re: the idealization of the normal.)
Tags: angel: the series, buffy the vampire slayer, fandom, livejournal, memes, spike
69 Responses to “20 unpopular opinions”
chenanceou on November 21, 2003 10:00 pm | Link
Not only do.I agree with all – and I mean all 20 (special mention to 1 & 8 in the show ones) – of your (un)popular opinions, but you saved me the trouble of writing the same things all over again.
So, thank you.
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chenanceou on November 21, 2003 10:03 pm | Link
Oh – How could I have forgotten #7!
Soul? Schmoul.
You go girl!
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 10:51 pm | Link
Thanks! Glad that you agree with a lot of it.
Good to know that there are still a few of us no soul redemptionistas left in this fandom. ;)
Do you mind if I make a LJ icon with “Soul? Schmoul.” on it? Not now but at some point in the future when I get in an icon making mood? I was just thinking that would be such a great phrase for an icon.
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chenanceou on November 21, 2003 11:01 pm | Link
Go right ahead. I still have my t-shirt.:)
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rahirah on November 21, 2003 11:56 pm | Link
Oh, we’re still around.
I think, really, that a lot of people convinced themselves that the soul was necessary after the fact. I can buy that SPIKE thought the soul was necessary, but that it was necessary in an objective sense or that that was the only possible way for the story to play out… eh. ME never convinced me.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 2:30 pm | Link
I think, really, that a lot of people convinced themselves that the soul was necessary after the fact.
Exactly. It’s so disappointing to see people who used to argue so eloquently for soulless redemption going, “Oh, he needed the soul.” Nothing has changed since they were pro-soulless redemption; most of the time they’re just going along with it because ME framed the situation that way. Objectively speaking, I see no evidence whatsoever that the soul was necessary.
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glossing on November 21, 2003 10:05 pm | Link
This is, by far, the best written iteration of the meme I’ve come across. It’s just a work of beauty. Wow. That I happen to agree with much of it, other than the Xander, is just icing. :)
It’s fiction, and it’s all a matter of interpretation.
Bless you.
it’s still homophobic, based on heterocentric norms that look down on other sexualities, norms that underlie many aspects of this society and are invisible to a lot of people.
I need to print this out and retype it every time the kerfuffles start. Okay with you?
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 10:49 pm | Link
Thank you! That means a lot coming from you; you’re one of my absolute favorite fic writers.
I need to print this out and retype it every time the kerfuffles start. Okay with you?
Sounds good. :) Although I think you express it perfectly well yourself. You always have such insightful comments during the slash kerfuffles.
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chase820 on November 21, 2003 10:06 pm | Link
I’m especially in agreement over #5 in your fan behavior opinions. I came across some public community that was set up to make fun of bad Harry Potter fic. I took a look at the comments, which were quite funny, but then I took a look at the original stories. They were all clearly written by children, children who’d read and loved the books, and were experimenting with making up stories of their own. I think this is a good and worthwhile thing. Because as any writer of any experience knows, you never write anything good until you’ve written a lot of horrible shit. I shudder to think what would happen if any of those young authors ever found that community. It might cauterize some budding young talent once and for all.
I also agree with most of your comments on Buffy. One of the reasons “Thrall” slowed down so much is after mid Season Six I really, really started to dislike the character and want Spike as far from her as possible. And though my Buffy has committed none of her canon sister’s more grievous sins, it’s been difficult working through my layers of built up resentment to find her again.
Thanks for such an interesting read, Laura.
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 11:07 pm | Link
They were all clearly written by children, children who’d read and loved the books, and were experimenting with making up stories of their own.
Yeah, exactly. No one starts out brilliant. And so many of these stories are clearly written by young kids. It’s not very encouraged in youth culture to read or write for fun, so we really should be glad that they’re doing it at all.
And though my Buffy has committed none of her canon sister’s more grievous sins, it’s been difficult working through my layers of built up resentment to find her again.
I understand completely.
One thing you might try is going back and rewatching some earlier episodes, from back when she was a sympathetic person. I was re-watching season two last weekend, and it made me start to remember why I used to sympathize with her so much. (Which is probably why my anti-Xander thoughts were the first thing I wrote down! Early season two was making me so angry at him in retrospect.)
One thing I like about fic is that it can show what a good person Buffy could have become if she had taken a different direction in her life. The basically good person of season two didn’t have to become the monster of later seasons; it’s neat to see the positive ways in which her personality traits could have developed. I think re-watching the earlier seasons can help us see that.
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jslayeruk on November 21, 2003 10:08 pm | Link
Oh dear Lord, number 8, THANK YOU!!! Spike, as we know him, has Done Nothing Wrong. Ack!
*gives you a massive bear hug*
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 11:09 pm | Link
LOL.
*hugs back*
Thanks. That’s one idea that makes so much sense to me, and I don’t see why it’s not represented at all in any of the mainstream discourses about or within the show. I guess ’cause it would probably wreck their whole shanshu competition thingy.
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shipperx on November 21, 2003 10:10 pm | Link
I agree with ALL your fandom statements, but I especially love your show statements 2,3,4,5,7, and 8. Those rock… and so do you. :)
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 11:08 pm | Link
Wow. All? Very cool. Thanks. :)
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kita0610 on November 21, 2003 10:38 pm | Link
I think Spike has a lot to apologize for. Atone for even.
But the rest of your stuff? Spot on. Even the B/A. Altho I prefer to think they could get to know eachot.er and live happily ever after. :}
I love the damn duster, but I can see why it would piss Wood the fuck off. And Buffy if she knew where it came from. Cause, yea. Ew.
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 11:14 pm | Link
Really? I thought you’d disagree with, like, everything. Cool. :)
Heh. See, my vision of B/A is like, they try so hard to get along because this is their ideal! And it has to be perfect! So Buffy smiles and stays at home baking cookies or whatever she thinks suburban wives do, and she puts up with Angel bossing her around and telling her what to do, until one day she finally can’t take it anymore and she SNAPS! and beats the living hell out of him, leaving him lying in an alley half-dead to possibly dust when the sun comes up.
Um, but that’s just me. ;) I can see how someone who actually likes both characters would view it a lot differently.
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kita0610 on November 21, 2003 11:49 pm | Link
RE: Your B/A scenario. There’s a story on Campfire Tales you might like, by Ins. It’s called Fault. Your notion isn’t far off, but she makes it work. Creepy. as. fuck.
And also? :P SpikeisanastyevilmanwhorewhoneedstobepunishedbyGodforbeingmeantoTheSlayer!
Hee.
No, there’s nothing else there I disagree with. Which is..hm. Ok, not odd. We chatted for a while at that con. Besides your view of Spike, I think we see most other things almost the same. Problem being that Spike was so prominent in the last couple of seasons that one’s view of him shades one’s view of most other characters. Which makes you and I have different stances on various topics, but none all that drastic. I’d have liked to have chatted with you back in the early days of Buffy. Would have been interesting.
BTW, did you make a decision about the site and your involvement in fandom, etc? I hope this post means that you’re hanging around. Hate to have put all this effort into making friends with a Redemptionist and then have her disappear. *G*
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:04 pm | Link
That’s true, we did have a good conversation at the con. I guess I’m surprised because my sympathy for Spike pretty much overwhelms all my other fannish opinions; I’m first a Spike fan, not a BtVS or AtS fan.
It’s funny because I was watching season two last night with![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
drujan and found myself in the very odd position of defending Buffy. It’s amazing how much I sympathized with her back then. I felt so betrayed by Xander’s lie, and almost started crying when Buffy had to kill Angel. (And when I first watched that, back when it originally aired, I remember crying my eyes out.) It’s all so very different from how I feel about those characters now!
I’ve enjoyed getting to know you too. (Hard to believe I actually have evilista friends!) I don’t know about staying involved in fandom. I do really want to keep in touch with the people I’ve gotten to know here. But it’s difficult to figure out if it’s worth it to put up with all negative aspects of LJ. I think friendships are probably more important … but if I spend the majority of my time here unhappy, is it really worth it to stay? I’m still figuring that out, I guess.
Thanks for the story rec. Sounds interesting; I’ll check it out.
Oh, and BuffyisanastyevilheartlessabusivebitchwhoneedstobepunishedbyGodforbeingmeantoSpike! ;P
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kita0610 on November 23, 2003 6:33 pm | Link
Yea, if it’s not fun, back away. Gotcha there.
I was just as surprised as you we managed to chat for hours without drawing blood. *G*
And you know, back in the early seasons of BtVS Buffy was HIGHLY sympathetic. She was basically a little girl with the weight of the world on her shoulders. And Becoming was completely cutting edge TV. No one ever made the heroine kill someone she loved before that. Not at such a young age, in any case. It’s easy to watch the more adult, jaded later seasons and let that color the past. But if you watch from Day1? No, Buffy was a hero, tried and true. What she became later is up for debate.
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shipperx on November 22, 2003 12:59 am | Link
Actually my vision of it is a bit different.
Buffy and Angel would hook up and be deliriously happy… for about a week. Then something would happen. Buffy and Angel would both try to take charge. They would then both retreat because — this is all fuzzy warm honeymoon period and must be nice to one’s sweetie. But honeymoons end and eventually the two battling alphas would become annoyed at the other alpha. Both Angel and Buffy are both so entrenched in “I’m the boss. I’m the center of attention. I’m the one around whom everyone else revolves” that eventually this irritation would grow… and grow… and grow… The bloom would be off the rose and one of these days, Buffy would reveal her tendency to be a narcissistic bitch who must be obeyed. Angel would be dismayed by this complete stranger who behaves in no way like his fantasy adolescent adoring dewey eyed Buffy. HIS wonderfully wonderful Buffy could behave like that. Something must be wrong. And when something is wrong, Angel does what Angel always does… he withdraws and broods about it.
Buffy of the present doesn’t follow when someone withdraws. The rules of Buffy’s game is that someone must make it all up to HER. She’s right. She’s always right and when she’s not right, it doesn’t matter. You still have to come to her. Angel would have to make the first move.
Angel sucks at making the first move in a relationship sense. He is the king of withdrawing.
Distance would grow.
Angel would blame himself for the distance.
Buffy would blame Angel for the distance.
Buffy would wait for Angel to make it all perfect because, you know, her life with Angel was supposed to be prefect twu wuv. This isn’t like her fantasy, damnit. How dare it not be like her fantasy! It was supposed to be perfect!
Buffy isn’t happy. It must be his fault. Angel becomes more certain that he’s not doing it right. He’s not good for Buffy. This is hard! Relationships are hard! It demands his effort and attention and stuff. He’s not good at this. He’s not good for Buffy. Buffy would be better off with someone else. He’ll leave her for her own good.
Angel leaves Buffy “for her own good.”
Buffy has a fit. How DARE he! Where will she go? What will she do? But she just KNOWS Angel will be back someday, and everything will be perfect. See she just knows how everything will be perfect. . . someday. When things are perfect and not so hard and stuff. THings were perfect yet. She’ll wait for them to be perfect. Then they can *really* be together, because after all, tomorrow is another day!
And Angel thinks that Buffy is his twu wuv, that he can never have and isn’t that romantic? He can brood about it and never have to deal with trying to forge an actual functional relationship or grow through the tough spots.
And Buffy thinks that Angel is her twu wuv forever, an. that mystical day (that never, ever EVER happens) when everything is perfect they can be together and everything will be perfectly perfect… and she doesn’t have to bother with all that difficult stuff of actually making a functional relationship that has to function on a day to day basis.
And Buffy and Angel go their separate ways still certain that they are a great romance… but without ever developing a real relationship. Still waiting for it all to fit their fantasy without ever acknowleging that reality of it pretty much… mostly… sucked. They live in denial and in “what might have been” until one or the other of them is dead, then they preserve that fantasy image in amber.
It’s all very pretty in their heads, but is empty, barren, and never really existed. But then fantasy is so much easier than complicated and real.
I don’t see how Buffy and Angel could ever co-exist. Their weaknesses and blind spots and tendency to withdraw would basically doom them to failure… not that they’d ever admit that the relationship was a failure. It’s just that fantasy is so much easier than reality… and they sort of like it that way.
Meanwhile, anyone stupid enough to LOVE them gets used, abused, and blown to the side because reality will never, ever match up to fantasy… even if it’s infinitely more real and more meaningful.
So then they’re at an impasse.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 2:32 pm | Link
Heh. I can see it that way, too. But I still think there’d also be some hitting on Buffy’s part. When she’s upset, she speaks with her fists, and she never learned to control or deal with or even recognize that aspect of herself.
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mintwitch on November 21, 2003 11:09 pm | Link
Mostly, I agree. I do think Spike needs to earn redemption, because I believe free will is different from soul/animus, but that’s my quirk. Also, I find Xander flawed, but lovable. IMO, he’s actually one of the more complex characters, because he does turn into his dad/what he hates sometimes, and struggles with that. Also, he sometimes doesn’t notice, which is realistic.
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 11:21 pm | Link
I think Xander was maybe a little bit lovable during that confused loser stage in S4. And okay, maybe a bit in The Zeppo. But overall, I really did find him repulsive. I felt so bad for Anya. Xander in Entropy … gah! And another part of the problem was that the narrative never really called him on it or dealt with his issues … they just glossed it over and made like he was some kind of great hero, just ’cause he’d been on the show since the beginning. (Xander dumps Anya because he’s afraid he’s going to become his father. So now he’s going to deal with those issues, right? ….?)
Which is also really funny because S/X is the closest I come to having at OTP. I guess the Xander in fic, who comes to value Spike at all, is usually by that act already come so far from the bigot that I saw on TV. He shows that he’s learning and growing and becoming more accepting of difference. Plus fic writers tend to write him more sympathetically and to deal with his issues, instead of just forgiving his every act because he’s one of the Sacred Core Four.
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shipperx on November 22, 2003 1:08 am | Link
Well the question of whether Souled Spike needs to be forgiven pretty much depends on where you stand on soul canon. If you believe that Angel/Angelus are two beings and that the soul lossage excuses all of Angel’s non-souled actions without Angel being responsible for it because he had no soul and wasn’t responsible for Angelus’s actions… then Souled Spike has NOTHING to make up for. Souled Spike has done nothing wrong of his own free will. He was a good man prior to death. And his actions post souling are a damn sight nicer than I would have been to people who treated me the way that Scoobs, Giles, et al treated him.
If however your stance is a bit more complicated than that and you hold Angel/Angelus to essentially be the same person (even if you recognize that soul makes some difference, you still believe that the person is essentially STILL the person and therefore Angelus IS Angel… hen yeah Souled Spike bears some responsibility for the actions of unsouled Spike.
I can see either stance, I just want to be (and would like others to be) logically consistent and the rules they apply regarding soul/responsibility be the same with BOTH vampires.
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mintwitch on November 22, 2003 2:54 am | Link
Neither and both. I don’t believe Spike and William are the same person, and I don’t believe Angel and Angelus are the same person. However, I do hold the ’souled’ versions of both as accountable for the actions of the organism, period. There is no ‘get out of jail, free’ card.
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buffyx on November 21, 2003 11:11 pm | Link
Oh, and Xander’s “but I never forgot what he was” is the most bigoted piece of nonsense I’ve ever heard. I can’t believe ME let it come out of the mouth of a so-called hero.
Gah. Yes! Word. I hated that Xander got to act like such an assholic prick in all of season six and emerge the saintly hero at the end along with Giles, while Buffy was stuck in a dirt pit and had to be saved by the Noble Men.
My Buffy dislike isn’t as intense as your hatred of the character, but yeah, I definitely hate when people pull out the AR as proof that Spike was the horrible, nasty abuser in the relationship. They both fucked up in major ways, but what I saw was that Spike recognized his wrongdoing and changed it. Buffy’s “It’s killing me“ was so selfish that it made me want to hurl. Not to mention that I don’t think she really ever acknowledged that how she treated him was wrong, or that she was sorry for it. Even with Tara it turned into “Why do I let him do these things to me?” rather than “What am I doing?”. I started to like her again in season seven, but then towards the end she started to exhibit some manipulative behaviors and a coldness. I never was able to connect with her.
But I have to say, I actually found her to be at the height of her heroism in season five. I loved her all throughout that season. But then it all came crashing down and really can’t compare to what it was at one point.
I wholeheartedly agree with #4. Honestly, I find the relationship laughable. Angel and Buffy are not each other’s destinies. We’ve seen that even if Angel was human, they wouldn’t be together. They did not know each other at all; in fact, he seemed to think of her as a “brat” when she acted like a girl rather than the Slayer, and she was always complaining about how she didn’t understand him. Their romance hit an all time low in season three, and became the most emotionally hollow, histrionic soap-opera type love story I’ve seen portrayed on television. If Joss ends AtS with them riding off into the sunset, I think it’s probably the one thing that would make me burn my DVD’s and never watch reruns again.
I don’t hate William or find him particularly annoying, but yeah, people who want Spike to almost become him confuse me. I don’t read William!fic. I just don’t get it.
I also hate the idealization of normality that ME seems to put on a pedestal. Instead of accepting her role as something to be proud of, as realizing that it was part of who she was, Buffy’s “reward” in Chosen was to share it with a bunch of other girls so she could have her precious normal life. I think the main interest in Angel’s character .s the fact that he is a demon, and if he were to Shanshu, he’d be boring as hell. I can’t ever see Spike wanting to become human, and though I’ll read fics where he is, I’d hate to see it on the show. And I think Spike would hate it, too. It’d make him lose a lot of what makes him such a complex, intriguing character.
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rusty_halo on November 21, 2003 11:34 pm | Link
I hated that Xander got to act like such an assholic prick in all of season six and emerge the saintly hero at the end
Yeah, exactly! And it’s not even that he emerged a hero because he’d corrected any of his issues. He was a hero because of something we’d known about his since the very first episode. Yeah, he loves Willow. Loving your best friend doesn’t make you a good person, especially when it results in you treating your girlfriend like a piece of garbage and being a bully to anyone you dislike.
I agree with all you’ve said on Buffy. I actually did like her the first time I saw season five. And I liked her a whole lot back in S2. (I actually remember watching that horror movie where SMG’s character dies, and feeling sad because I didn’t want to see “Buffy” die. Now, I watch and laugh gleefully.) Unfortunately, now when I go back and re-watch S5, I see all the negative qualities that are eventually going to overwhelm her personality.
It’s so sad to see Buffy telling Spike in “Intervention” that “What you did was real. I won’t forg.t it.” Because she did forget! In the most horrific ways possible. It’s heart-breaking to go watch and re-watch that, which used to be such a wonderful scene.
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buffyx on November 21, 2003 11:46 pm | Link
I thought season five did a beautiful job of setting things up– at the end of The Gift, I actually loved all of the characters. A feat that Joss had never pulled off before. But everything that made season five so compelling was ruined piece by piece in season six.
Xander proposing to Anya– I thought it was a beautiful scene at the time, but then what happens? Anya’s fears that he was just saying it because he thought the end of the world was happening became valid; because he wasn’t ready to committ, because he really hadn’t grown up. The one thing I wished for Xander in season seven was a reconcilliation with Anya; I really wish Joss had let them actually get married. I loved them together until Xander turned into Asshole of the Millenium in season six and treated her as a stupid, annoying burden he had to carry.
And also Buffy’s sense of peace and finding herself on the tower: It was as if at that moment Buffy realized what being a Slayer was all about, that she was embracing it, knowing that it was what was right. But she never came close to finding that again.
So yeah, while season five is still easily my favorite, it hurts to watch and remember how much season six tainted it.
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mogens on November 21, 2003 11:58 pm | Link
there’s nothing wonderful or interesting there; just a dull naive little dork with a lot of unrealized potential.
I agree. And.I’d say the same applies to Liam and Darla. It’s fascinating, because vamping them was a curse, but also a blessing. Of all the SG, I felt Willow was the closest to Spike in this regard (i.e., her potential was only realized through supernatural means) and I’ll always be a little mad at ME for not exploring what these two had in common.
Fanfiction is just as artistically and emotionally valid as canon.
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying they’re basically on parallel tracks?
Once returned to normal, it’s ridiculous to hold them culpable for those things that they are able perfectly able to restrain themselves from doing.
Fair enough. But I find it interesting that both Spike and Angel want to redeem themselves, that they hold themselves responsible for what they’ve done unsouled. And if they didn’t, what would their story be?
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:23 pm | Link
Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying they’re basically on parallel tracks?
I mean like, at any given moment in canon, the story could branch off into a multitude of different directions. The writers of the show take one–.riven by inspiration, or an actor leaving or becoming available, or the demands of the network, or the results of a focus group, or a whim that the writer finds interesting, or whatever the reason might be. A fanfiction writer can start at that exact point and take the story in a different direction, and when done well it’s just as valid–artistically, creatively, etc.–as the direction that Mutant Enemy took it. It’s not a lesser creative process, it’s not invalidated by later canon, it’s not always secondary or less. It is just as valid as a piece of art as canon is.
But I find it interesting that both Spike and Angel want to redeem themselves, that they hold themselves responsible for what they’ve done unsouled. And if they didn’t, what would their story be?
Well, yeah, that’s ’cause they remember doing it with their bare hands. But from an outside point of view, I don’t see why anyone would hold them responsible. That’s like if someone offers you a drink, you accept it and it turns out to be drugged. The drug takes away all your inner restrictions and so you go and kill everyone who pisses you off. When you come back to yourself, you may feel horribly guilty about what you’ve done. It was, after all, driven by internal resentments that you held and still hold. BUT, the fact remains that you were drugged against your will and you did not have the internal restraint that would have allowed you to control your behavior. It was still YOU, but it was a you lacking a significant moral control. I wouldn’t hold people responsible in that situation, even though they might feel very guilty themselves.
Now Angel, as I said, I can see feeling guilty because he went around killing people after he got a soul, and he still has a problem with being indifferent, controlling, and making really bad moral choices (lawyer buffet? mind wipe? attempted murder of his former best friend?). For Spike, though, it really makes no sense. The worst thing he’s ever done with a soul is tell Wood that he doesn’t feel guilty about killing his mother (when we know that they were equal warriors battling in a fair fight and Spike didn’t have a soul at the time).
As far as what their stories would be without the whole guilt/redemption thing–beats me. That’s for the writers to figure out; I’m sure they’re perfectly capable of coming up with something.
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riddering on November 22, 2003 1:35 am | Link
I’m glad you’re still posting here on LJ. I’ve always enjoyed reading your thoughts because we agree on so many things and your posts always spark my mind into deeper thoughts about the shows.
10. Spike should keep the duster. It’s a representation of his strength, not his evil. Plus, it’s hot. Also, he should keep the bleached hair. And he really, really, really needs the eyeliner and nailpolish back. Please? Also, Spike becoming human is the worst idea ever, and every time someone says it I get physically nauseated. Just don’t. (For why, see above re: the idealization of the normal.)
I completely agree. It’s a thing with me about the nail polish. I miss it. Most importantly, I agree with the shanshu. I adamantly don’t want it to happen. I think it’s really the last thing that Spike himself wants. He’s never been the best at planning. Right now he doesn’t have a clue what he’s doing so I’m not surprised he picked up on .he prophecy as something to do. He does want it. The “it” being to fight it out and win something.
If “Destiny” proved anything, though, I think it proved that Spike does not want to be human. The imagery of the cross makes it clear that Spike recognizes he’s a demon everyday and is fine with it–hell, he loves it. So if he had fulfilled it at that opera house, he’d have been sorely disappointed.
Spike glories in being abnormal. That trait is one of the things that draws me to him to the most. We see this over and over again every time he picks himself up again. His resilience isn’t in trying to be normal. It is in resurrecting his demon and abnormal powers–using them to remind himself of his self-worth.
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shipperx on November 22, 2003 1:44 am | Link
I can actually see a way to make a logical argument for Spike wishing to be human… or Spike never being human. Either choice could be developed in a convincing way… However, I suspect that M.E. will never develop eit.er concept much at all so it’s a case of , whatever you prefer/ it’s up to you. I think M.E. will never define this subject (though it’s quite clear that the ultimate in the Whedonverse is to achieve so-called “normalcy”. . .but that’s M.E.’s problem)
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:30 pm | Link
Spike glories in being abnormal. That trait is one of the things that draws me to him to the most. We see this over and over again every time he picks himself up again. His resilience isn’t in trying to be normal. It is in resurrecting his demon and abnormal powers–using them to remind himself of his self-worth.
Yes, exactly. It’s so nice and so rare to find a character who is comfortable with himself and who likes being different. In this society, you go through life having conformity shoved down your throat most of the time. Spike is a nice counter to that.
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fenchurche on November 22, 2003 1:37 am | Link
Oh, yes. yesssss…. Yesss…. YESSSSS…. YESSSSSS!!!!
Er, um, I mean to say, I totally agree with you on all counts except, somewhat, #9 — but that’s something I consider a guilty pleasure (there’ve been some good William fics out there, and it’s basically the other side of Spike’s coin, so to speak — fun to explore occasionally).
Re: the nerd trio. They totally rocked. And it was even better because they reminded me of people I know. Except for the murder part. I hope.
Re: Buffy and Angel. We don’t even have to imagine what they’d be like after riding off in the sunset together. I think the only time they didn’t practically come to blows after the initial “glow” wore off was when he visited after her mother died. Yeah, they parted sort of well in “Chosen” but things weren’t smooth sailing in that meeting either.
Re: Xander. Oh… let me count the ways. The thing that bugged me the most? Xander’s “harem” attitude. All the girls in his sphere of influence were HIS. He couldn’t spare Willow a second thought until she got a boyfriend, then he had to worm his way in even though he had a girlfriend who was crazy about him and had sacrificed to be with him. He was always doing stuff to undermine Buffy’s relationship with Angel (to the point of influencing life or death situations), and he didn’t like Riley until Riley revealed that Buffy didn’t really love him (at which point Xander could use Riley as his proxy, I guess). And, quite frankly, Tara was never a threat because she wasn’t a guy.
Um, I have Xander issues, if you can’t tell.
And sort of corrolary to #5, it always bugged the hell out of me the way they handled the Riley thing. Because it’s pretty much stated in black and white (or color, being television) that, yep, Buffy drove Riley to seek out vampire whores because she wasn’t giving him everything he needed. AAAUUGGHHHHH!!! I hate that. HATE IT. Feminist show, my Aunt Violet’s fanny.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:32 pm | Link
The thing that bugged me the most? Xander’s “harem” attitude.
That’s a great way of putting it. That’s exactly what he did. God, it was annoying. And I can’t believe that he never got called on it!
Buffy drove Riley to seek out vampire whores because she wasn’t giving him everything he needed
Oh, god, I know. Heaven forbid that she be stronger than him and then not pay him extra special attention .hile her mother in in the hospital dying! Jesus Christ. I think we should raise a fund to send Joss back to college to take some real women’s studies classes.
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carolyn_claire on November 22, 2003 1:43 am | Link
Personally, I prefer to hold strong opinions, which are in no way arbitrary….I may change them later, but only if I’m presented with new information or an extremely convincing new perspective.
Heh. I’ve explained it to my husband exactly this way, more than once. Not a thing wrong with that, either.
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shapinglight on November 22, 2003 5:19 am | Link
I agree with everything you’ve said about Xander. I’ve just re-watched season 6 and I came out of it loathing his guts. Like you said, that “I never forgot what he was” speech is the most horrible piece of hypocritical racist shit and it amazes me that ME can’t see that.
I don’t entirely agree about Buffy, also since re-watching season 6, and I certainly can’t see what the person up above who said that Spike needs to be punished for being mean to her is talking about. Wasn’t he repeatedly punished over and over and over all the way through season 7? It’s the only dropped ball of season 6 that ME ever picked up. It amazes me how wilfully blind some people can be that they can’t see that.
Agree with you about B/A entirely and about all the fannish behaviour stuff.
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jerrymcl89 on November 22, 2003 7:56 am | Link
Regarding Xander, although I had problems with his behavior in S6, I didn’t really have a problem with the actual writing of him until S7. The crayon scene, which was fine in and of itself if you can overlook how he was acting before that, would have worked nicely as a turning point that led him to reexamiing himself and, over the course of S7, gradually addressing all the issues that were raised about him in S6 – his intolerance of Spike, his desire to make decisions for Buffy, and especially his treatment of Anya.
Basically, I agree with your points about him, but I never disliked him as much as you do because I could understand why he acted that way. But as a story, I think it’s pointless unless he finally learns, and he never did. Maybe Joss feels that how life is – that we don’t really defeat our flaws so much as battle them to a draw – but if that was the point he didn’t do a great job of conveying it.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:40 pm | Link
But as a story, I think it’s pointless unless he finally learns, and he never did. Maybe Joss feels that how life is – that we don’t really defeat our flaws so much as battle them to a draw – but if that was the point he didn’t do a great job of conveying it.
See, I think it could have been neat if they’d actually done it that way. But part of telling a story is in actually telling it. I never saw any indication at all that we were expected to see anything wrong with Xander’s behavior, except that he made one little mistake at the end of Hell’s Bells (that didn’t really matter all that much anyway because it was just Anya and she’s strange and who really cares anyway). But his big issues were always brushed under the rug, never acknowledged or dealt with.
I think the ultimate telling note is that we were supposed to think “Chosen” was a happy ending because the “core four” survived, even though much kinder, more interesting, and more sympathetic characters like Anya and Spike had just died horribly.
There’s a way of telling a story without spelling everything out, but that’s not what they did with Xander’s issues. They didn’t tell that story at all, but simply glossed over and ignored it.
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meko00 on November 22, 2003 8:58 am | Link
I may not agree on all the specifics, but on the whole I do. I actually have a deep fondness for natural hair, but I guess I could make an exception for Spike. ;-)
Umm… I have some deep issues about the so-called talent of some of the actors on the shows, and if their characters are annoying or reprehensible too, it just makes it harder. Take a wild guess as to whom I’m referring; I won’t bash anyone here. Although I’m sorely tempted. ;-)
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:41 pm | Link
Heh. Don’t worry, you’re welcome to bash that someone in my journal. ;)
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zyrya on November 22, 2003 10:07 am | Link
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:45 pm | Link
You make some great points about Xander. He has always rubbed me wrong, from the very first episode, though I’ve had a hard time putting my finger on precisely why. But I think you’ve got it–he thinks he knows what everyone else should do and how they should behave, and he’s constantly making judgements and then trying to force those judgements on other people. It’s incredibly selfish and condescending and creepy. And it’s really sad for those people who actually bought into it. At least Cordy could hold her own, but poor Anya internalized his constant belittling and ridicule.
What earthly good is redemption? It’s meaningless … nothing can change the past, nothing can make up for what has been done.
Exactly. And I can see Angel not getting that–he loves to wallow. But Spike is like the master of moving on and moving forward and not dwelling on the past. I have a hard time believing that “redemption” would mean something to him because I think that he, of anyone, would get that you can’t change the past, you can only move forward in the future.
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spikewriter on November 22, 2003 10:15 am | Link
Actually find myself agreeing with you about most of these, but this line in particular stood out:
People have the right to write badfic.
Say amen. All of us at times write or have written badfic. I know I have some piles of steaming crap on my hard drive, some it fic, some of it original fiction. It’s part of writing. It’s when you’re learning or the days the words just don’t come together. Anne Lamot is her book Bird by Bird says that writers should give themselves permission to write shitty first drafts, that it’s all part of the process. Part of growing as a writer is knowing when something needs to be released and when it should stay buried forever.
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hobiscuit on November 22, 2003 11:32 am | Link
This is the only one of these memes that I’ve agreed with every point on. Thank you for writing this, now I don’t have to tax my brain coming up with 10 things.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:46 pm | Link
Thanks. :) Though I’m still curious what your ten things would have been.
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nmissi on November 22, 2003 1:38 pm | Link
Sing it, sister. I think I agree with nearly every point you made.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:46 pm | Link
Thanks. :)
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rockgoddes on November 22, 2003 11:36 pm | Link
You know there’s a lot here that I don’t agree with, but you know there’s tons I do agree with too.
More than anything, I cont.nue to be blown away by how incredibly articulate, thoughtful, thought-provoking, engaging, and down-right frighteningly intelligent you are.
Bravo.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:46 pm | Link
Awww. Thanks. :)
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paratti on November 23, 2003 11:04 am | Link
Wordy Mc Word to the lot of it.
Especially about Xander.
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rusty_halo on November 23, 2003 3:47 pm | Link
Heh, thanks. I knew you’d agree on the Xander stuff. :)
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paratti on November 23, 2003 3:55 pm | Link
I’d do one on him and Buffy, of whom I would not inflict on the 37 feral cats that will consume her cold dead body after she’s driven everyone away with her extreme narcissism – but I’m about to upset the Aussies with the Rugby Ficlet as it is.
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cbrownjc on November 25, 2003 1:02 am | Link
Had to delurk and comment.
You had me with a lot of stuff (disagree about Buffy, but that’s neither here nor there), but you lost me on number seven, simply because (being a member of an ethnic minority) I utterly despise the comparison of Spike being a soulless killer, and then giving him a soul, to being a racist attitude.
Vampires, by their natures are only monsters and killers because of a metaphysical difference with humans. Their nature, being soulless, is what makes them killers, not being Vampires in and of themselves.
African American, Jews, ect., were considered inferior because of their ethnic group. Not because they lack something metaphysical inside of them that defined their whole make up as a subspecies, as Vampires have continuously been shown too.
A true parallel to racist attitude would be people saying that even though Spike (and Angel) have souls they are still evil because they are Vampires.
You don’t know me, and I’m not trying to flame you or anything, but .hat comparison always has a way of pushing my buttons in a not so nice way, having been on the receiving end of racism, and knowing what the attitude those who are being racist to someone really comes from and what it’s about.
I’m not saying Spike could never have been redeemed without a soul. I honestly don’t know, one way or the other, and I fully supported the idea. But I see his soul-getting (done on purpose!) as full indication that soulless Spike was trying to be a better person, and though getting a soul would continue to help him on that path.
But, racist? Not at all IMO.
sorry I posted twice, I had an html screw-up.
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claudia_yvr on November 25, 2003 7:10 pm | Link
Wordy McWord, Laura! Also? Those vegan marshmallows are the best marshmallows I’ve ever had. These satisfy a craving I’ve had for years.
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rusty_halo on November 26, 2003 10:54 am | Link
Awesome. Glad you liked the marshmallows. :)
Doing anything interesting for Thanksgiving? I’m actually looking forward to it for once because my coworker is having a bunch of us over for a vegan Thanksgiving. Plus, I’m making pecan pie, which is the best. :)
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claudia_yvr on November 27, 2003 7:58 pm | Link
Thanksgiving falls in October here in Canada, and isn’t nearly as big of a deal as it seems to be in the States, although many people do flock home to eat turkey. Poor things. I keep thinking of that old WKRP in Cincinnati episode, which is so funny yet horrifying. Anyway, I didn’t end up spending Thanksgiving with family or friends this year, instead choosing to spend a quiet evening at home.
It’s wonderful that you have vegan coworkers; I’m the only vegetarian at work and it’s sometimes an issue when we all go out for a meal. BTW, if it’s not too much trouble could you email me your pecan pie recipe? It sounds yummy!
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rusty_halo on December 3, 2003 2:24 am | Link
Hey,
Sorry for taking so long. I posted the pecan pie recipe (along with a bunch of others) at:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/drinkthepoisonx/61030.html#cutid1
It’s so cool to have vegan coworkers. Actually, my whole office is vegan, save for one person. Makes ordering in really fun. And always gives us something to talk about. I think having a common cause helps us get along even though we’re such different people personality-wise. And it’s so nice to be able to join in, not to be the lone freak. Whenever we have birthday parties, and big fluffy cakes–I can eat them! You have no clue how much that means until you go without it for a few years. I’d love to stay in this place forever; I don’t know how any other company is going to measure up.
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ludditerobot on December 1, 2003 9:55 am | Link
1. I haven’t been able to stand Xander since the lie in Becoming 2. He did it because he’s a bigoted, condescending little creep. He *always* judged Angel harshly because he wanted to get rid of the competition, and he never trusted Buffy to make her own decisions. Over the seasons he slowly turned into his father–the way he treated Anya, the way he treated Spike, even the condescending way he treated Buffy. He was an absolutely repulsive character. And it’s most clear in B2–I can’t beli.ve he had the gall to call himself Buffy’s friend after that! And I completely understand Buffy’s desire to leave after that episode; if I were her, I wouldn’t have bothered coming back.
I have to say that, from what I’ve seen of fandom, this isn’t an unpopular opinion. In fact, it strikes me as pretty popular. The thing is, I don’t think a lot of it is justified by the source material. Yes, he always judged Angel harshly, but I can’t buy your because. And I see Xander explicitly tell Buffy he trusts her in regards to Angel in “Revelations”, and I don’t think we see a point where he reverses that in S3.
What I see with the lie is that he sees Buffy having built up a head of steam, Buffy having made herself ready to save the world. He was about to tell what Willow was up to, and in a split second saw that Buffy was ready now, and he didn’t need to say it. It was more “I don’t want to screw things up” than “I want to manipulate her”. At the core of Xander is low self opinion, and his Dad-like anger comes up when his anger exceeds his “I have no right to speak” level. We saw that in “When She Was Bad”, when he tells Buffy that if they hurt Willow, he’ll kill her. We saw that also in “Dead Man’s Party”, “Revelations” and “Into The Woods”. (“DMP”? Not his best time, and yes he’s pretty creepy and bad there. I see, in terms of the episode, why it had to be Xander who talked to Buffy in “Into The Woods”, but that’s really a best friend’s role, and he’s the sidekick. And “Revelations”? I think, before I start, that we’ll just agree to disagree.)
Going back to a point — the way he treated Spike — it isn’t like Spike is sitting there quietly and taking it while Xander yells at him. Also, and I hate Season 7 (among other reasons) for softening his treatment of Spike. Remember, when Anya’s calling for Spike’s death in “Sleeper”, Xander has no opinion. Then again, from “CWDP” to around “Showtime”, I think they were starting to set up Xander as an agent of the First.
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rusty_halo on December 1, 2003 11:01 am | Link
I think it’s pretty unpopular. I’ve certainly had to argue it often enough.
I think it was very much Xander attempting to manipulate Buffy. He came this close to telling the truth and then he explicitly lied to her, in a way that definitely effected the final battle (for good or bad, who knows; if Buffy had been aware that Willow was doing the curse she may have taken more care to prevent Angelus from opening Acathla, thus preventing Buffy from having to choose between Angel and the world).
Xander had a crush on Buffy from episode one. Xander never liked Angel because he felt threatened, because Angel was competition. Xander’s always thought that he had some right to control Buffy’s love life–witness his outrage at her for sleeping with Spike in S6.
What Xander did to Buffy in Becoming 2 is something that no friend would do. I can tell you right now that if any of my friends were to ever try anything like that with me, I would cut them out of my life completely without a second thought. Xander had no right to do what he did in that situation. He wasn’t the one who had to kill his lover, and as such he had an obligation to tell Buffy the truth and let her make the best decision with the most information available.
As far as Xander’s treatment of Spike: Xander was a bigot, plain and simple. Xander saw Spike nearly die to protect Dawn several times. Xander saw Spike protect Dawn and the Scoobies all summer. Xander was absolutely disgusting in his refusal to recognize Spike as a person, an individual who has value, and someone to whom Xander himself owes quite a bit. Sure, Spike snarked back at him, but it’s Xander who m.de a point of hitting him when he couldn’t fight back. Xander was a bully, a cruel domineering selfish bully. End of story as far as I’m concerned.
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ludditerobot on December 1, 2003 12:05 pm | Link
I think we can just agree to disagree for a lot of that. And I know saying that Giles is just as big a bigot too doesn’t make it all right.
if Buffy had been aware that Willow was doing the curse she may have taken more care to prevent Angelus from opening Acathla, thus preventing Buffy from having to choose between Angel and the world).
She was there to prevent Angelus from opening Acathla. That was her goal. That was her purpose. She was single-minded about it. I cannot imagine splitting her goals ( 1) Stop Angelus and 2) Keep him alive so Willow’s spell can work ) would have done anything but weakened her.
What Xander did to Buffy in Becoming 2 is something that no friend would do.
I guess I sort of agree with this. Going back to his words in “When She Was Bad”, Willow was hurt because Buffy went off on her own again. I can see how Xander could’ve taken it that Buffy severed their friendship.
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zatojin on December 3, 2003 2:11 am | Link
Ok… i apologize… i m an incredible n00b when it comes to ljs… but yes… you are one of 3 people that shares the incredible love for JAIME LANNISTER! i just felt it necessary to give a little shout out to ya… because jaime does indeed rock.
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rusty_halo on December 3, 2003 2:20 am | Link
Hee. Thanks. Check out![[info]](http://stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif)
queenofthorns as well; she loves him even more than I.
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blueophelia on December 27, 2003 4:16 am | Link
I agree with most of it (and I despise Xander to a degree that no human being deserves). But most of all:
10. Spike should keep the duster. It’s a representation of his strength, not his evil. Plus, it’s hot. Also, he should keep the bleached hair. And he really, really, really needs the e.eliner and nailpolish back. Please? Also, Spike becoming human is the worst idea ever, and every time someone says it I get physically nauseated. Just don’t. (For why, see above re: the idealization of the normal.)
Eyeliner was SO hot. Nailpolish I can do without, but the eyeliner needs to come back.
I would be sickened if he was human. I also hate Buffy, and she doesn’t deserve Spike. Unless of course she’s drastically changed and is eager to crawl on her hands and knees and do several long years of hard labor penance, which, come on, how likely is that? And that would actually suck because it isn’t true to the character… But anyway. Buffy never loved Spike, and for him to become human would be useless. He’d just die eventually and be miserable until his death. She’s caused him enough damage, and he needs a new love interest. (Personally, I’m not against Spike/Fred, but I also like Wes/Fred, so that would suck. And although I hate Angel, why not take some network risk and have some Spike/Angel? There are possibilities! ME just sucks.)
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marsterslady on January 23, 2004 5:44 am | Link
I feel a bit weak, and perhaps also a bit overcome by all that I just read. I read every word. You said so much. I can’t possibly sit here and point out all that I agreed with you on. It’d take up far too much space. I will say this:
I can’t believe that there is someone else who finally is saying that they feel like I did about Buffy/Angel. I loved the idealogy of it, but .. I don’t believe it was love. All of the reasons that you pointed out were sound and true, and exactly my thoughts.
Ahh! I felt near tears as I read it all – someone who is as much into this show as I am, moreso even. Willing to take apart each angle, each relationship, each character.
::does mental cheerleading jumps::
I’m working on getting to where you are about Xander. I came into the show mid-season 6 and tried to catch up on past years. I believe I’ve seen everything, more than once, but it’s all disjointed as I don’t have S6 and S7 on DVD yet to watch them all in succession. I’m almost to Xander-lie hatred. Almost. I feel like I’m on the cusp. Would you like to convince me? ;-)
If you don’t mind, I’d love to friend you. I’d love to find out more about this person who sees the show as you do, analyzing it. Do you post about your life in the same fashion? I’ll read it. I saved your site to my fave places and will go for a more prolonged visit when I can.
Wow.
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rusty_halo on January 25, 2004 4:38 am | Link
Thanks. :) You are, of course, welcome to friend me.
I think the Xander-lie thing bothered me so much because I was watching the show as it aired, cared very deeply about the story, and totally identified with Buffy. It felt like a personal betrayal when Xander did that. To me, the one thing that I will never forgive is betrayal, and that was a clear, conscious, utterly selfish and condescending betrayal. When he made it, Xander should have recognized that he was ending his friendship with Buffy, and taken that into consideration when he made that choice. I’m so utterly squicked and repulsed by the fact that, instead, he continued to claim her friendship and was outraged at her for betraying him. Xander is one bigoted, condescending, self-righteous creep.
This opinion is only furthered by season six, in particular the climax scene of “Entropy.” In this scene, Xander is just a younger version of his father–he tries to murder Spike for sleepi.g with his (100% consenting ex-girlfriend) and then makes Anya feel like dirt for sleeping with a “thing” instead of accepting his own responsibility for leaving her at the altar. He has never recognized or tried to overcome his character flaws. Xander makes me sick.
Um, does that help at all? ;)
Sorry for getting all ranty. And thanks; I’m glad my opinions appeal to you. I don’t really think I’ll be posting about the show all that much in the future; the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth at this point. But maybe.
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bookishwench on May 5, 2004 12:31 pm | Link
Just noticed you on my friends list, and decided to friend on back, following the link here.
Some things I agree with 100%, particularly the incredibly disturbing abusive figure they turned Buffy into in season 6 (and I’ve seen it argued ad nauseum that somehow her attitude was entirely Spike’s fault. Horse pucky.). It angered me that they pretty much destroyed her character, and in doing so tried to make it some sort of feminist manifesto, which technically was tantamount to the idea that women can do things men would get slammed in jail for with complete impunity. Other things… well, some I don’t agree with (particulary William, whom I pretty much adore, and I do like Angel quite a lot… and as a Spike-lover I’ve gotten used to the total shock/disbelief of people at that), but I’m willing to respect your opinions even if I don’t completely agree.
The fandom has become a really interesting place, and I will admit that the Buffyverse is really the only fandom I’ve ever become involved in. There are wildly differing opinions on a huge array of topics. As long as people are willing to listen to different sides of things and respect those differences, I think the fandom’s in pretty good shape.
That, and these characters are just plain fun to play with.
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ladylavinia on June 6, 2005 9:11 am | Link
Spike DID redeem himself when he was souless . . . because he MADE THE DECISION to go and get a soul. That is something that Angel could never do.
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